a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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I'm going to remake the graph for if the iron is free. Building might be viable for families with 3-4 iron mines, and begging for or finding an engine is possible. The kero equivalence still holds no matter what though! Every iron you use pre-diesel brings the mine one step closer to collapsing.
Ohol will always be ruled by meta gaming as long as there are people who understand it and have the ambition to see it through. Main point of this thread was that the effort you put forward doesnt resonate for long and is often thrown out the window in a day or two. Due to eve spawn mechanics and the desire to restrict lineage lengths.
I think there's a compromise possible between "infinite legacy resources" and current "deplete no matter what" resources. The jump from a newcomen well to a diesel well unlocks infinite water, but the barrier to entry is high enough that lots of families never make it. I think the same could be done for kero. With some advanced chemistry or mechanisms families should be able to re-drill exhausted oil wells and get them flowing again.
NoTruePunk wrote:People with the capacity to trade don't need to and people with the need to trade can't.
I don't think it's mostly trading. I think it's mostly dumping, gifting, and taking. Ginger deliverers paying it forward. Palm kernels dumped in badlands or in towns. Buckets of latex left around. Bowls of sulfur also. And more.
That's metagaming, not real trade.
I've gotta get heuwt to let me click through again with X and try this.
NoTruePunk wrote:Baby bones decay really fast. Just dump them where you're standing. It's fine.
No, it's not fine. I still have to dump them if I picked up the baby, when the production of the baby bones wasn't something I had anything to do with. Or I have to wait 2 minutes for them to clear, and for the record, forges and ovens run for less time. 2 minutes is 2 years. You aren't playing the character, nor in that sort of mindset, for sure, if you think that 2 years is a small amount of time. And I kind of doubt that you smith much, or have had a /die baby happen when you're smithing.
Also, do you really think that if a person got born into some hypothetical future with the bones of their dead sister they would just feel "oh, it's fine that she died so fast."? Do you really think that in the same hypothetical future, moms would just shrug their shoulders and be like "meh... another dead baby, I could care less. Back to cooking."?
I agree about the timer being too long. Maybe 30s would be better.
You don't know much about the history of childbirth? People knew not to get too attached.
NECRO
Do you still have the full res version of mine?
Jason said no GUI. He's committed to that.
A recipe tutorial for each basic recipe might help. So if players want to look up and practice a recipe they can navegate to it through the main menu.
Iron and food decay and stuff is all fine. Biggest issue is the eve spawn snake. As soon as a nearby group of stable villages starts to die and break up there's a runaway effect. Dying sends you further away which makes it harder to trade for the rubber you need for your well, which makes it harder to stay alive which sends you further and further out.
Combine that with everyone using /die when they spawn in the new low tech villages, and the fact that 90% of players in the high tech villages will never touch a waystone.
People with the capacity to trade don't need to and people with the need to trade can't. The distance is just too vast.
Baby bones decay really fast. Just dump them where you're standing. It's fine.
"My family couldn't get iron, because they weren't white."
Who in their right mind thinks that such is not indicative of racist game design? Who in their right mind thinks that such doesn't come from a racist?
What? Everyone will have iron calm down
As of right now, the tech tree feels all over the place, the race and tool restrictions limit the player on how they want to play, the gene score is merely a joke and the player HUD is oversatured with notifications. Now add the restrictions that were added for the rift update but are still here even without the rift like hunger work. Also overcomplicated mechanics like just getting some iron.
I really would love if jason sat down for a day and put his act together because the game mechanics feel unconsistent as if he didnt know what he wants to do.
Tool restrictions were removed
Interesting question about white folks. I suppose we could experiment with making them homeland-free, so they really can roam anywhere and join villages.
That might bring back some of the old nomadic gameplay people seem to miss, with the benefit of the new leadership features to coordinate and give people a beacon to home to. Some interesting trade and social situations could come about where the reception of the family's arrival is contextualized by the presents they arrive with and the family's history with their hosts. Trade is basically a multi-generational endeavor anyway with the thousands of meters between villages.
We'd need swaddles though.
Ok... i loled at this one
NoTruePunk wrote:Eve Troll wrote:Its more like asking for an abacus when you have a calculator.
Diesel powered calculator :joy:
Sprinklers are expensive as fuck and don't solve the problem in the interim or for the occasional manual watering that will continue to happen even after a sprinkler is set up.
I always believed that when Jason added this type of object (the sprinkler) we would obtain very great advantages, such as more abundant crops ... hahahaha I'm stupid!
I think it's a good system. There might be things wrong with the game still, but I don't think this is it.
One solution to keep families dying to low pop might be to up the f to m sex ratio when there's low numbers of players online.
I wouldn't go so far as to say it's false advertising, but some metagameplay does seem to be necessary these days, which is unfortunate. The population just isn't enough to sustain 4 families, most don't die to environmental pressure but to fertility issues.
Caprys wrote:Eve Troll wrote:We have sprinklers...
That's like saying that we have carnitas when you ask for bacon.
Its more like asking for an abacus when you have a calculator.
Diesel powered calculator :joy:
Sprinklers are expensive as fuck and don't solve the problem in the interim or for the occasional manual watering that will continue to happen even after a sprinkler is set up.
Here's the breakdown for the kero cost of compost:
1 bowl of water = 0.025 kero
12 berry = 12/7 soil, 0.04286 kero (water)
2 carrot = 2/5 soil, 0.01392 kero (water and steel)
1 straw = 1 soil, 0.02696 kero (water and steel)
Total 0.10874 kero, 2.05714 soil
1 bowl of soil = 0.10874 / 21 == 0.00518
2.05714 * 0.00518 = 0.01065
New total 0.11939
Per bowl: 0.11939 / 21 = 0.00569
This requires an infinite series to find the limit, but I'm not going to do that.
Hell yeah, shoes rock. Cheap and effective, never decay.
NoTruePunk wrote:The "hot" processes are the piston blanks and rods which require hot steel. These don't stack and are trickier to handle than "cold" processes that just take normal steel.
I think piston blanks and steel rods stack these days, and that's what I recall seeing after some of the stacking updates. They didn't use to though. It's getting harder and harder to find a veteran I think who hasn't made this sort of mistake at one point in time I think. For example, Tarr recently said on the discord that sandals didn't decay. Though, they had gotten changed to decaying, if I recall correctly, this past April.
I might be wrong on the above easily, or misunderstood your intended meaning, of course.
The blanks and rods do stack, but not while they're hot. That's what's hard about it, the newcomen process is time sensitive and you've got to have the forge running too. When I prep for this I usually clear out as many empty tiles around the forge that I think I'll need, then fire the forge right before the newcomen, since the newcomen has a shorter run time.
NoTruePunk wrote:3.6 (steel) + 1.5 (water) = 5.1
1 steel and 1 water are both 1 kero? How did you reason that 1 steel is equivalent to 1 kero, and 1 water is equivalent to 1 kero?
A plow takes 18 steel, and each steel takes 0.2 kero to mine. A bucket of water takes 0.25 kero, and it takes approximately 6 buckets to fire the newcomen engine while making the diesel engine.
NoTruePunk wrote:1/5/102=0.00196
Division does NOT associate. ((1/5)/102) = (1/510) == .00196, where '==' means approximately equals. So, you used association to the left.
ACK, how embarrassing. Sorry I didn't format that correctly, but I think my conclusion is still accurate.
So I did the rundown on sprinklers kinda the way I did for plows. Although the initial cost of making and expanding a sprinkler system is quite steep, the operating costs are very low, just 0.0666 kero per run:
1÷24+0.025 = 0.0666
The bowl of water costs 0.025 kero to make in a diesel well, and the sprinkler takes 1/24th of a kero to run. To be worthwhile the minimum length a sprinkler system must be to pay off the operating cost is:
(1÷24+0.025)÷0.025=2.666
So for just 10 steel, an engine and a bit of work you can lay the foundation for a future sprinkler system, without worrying about it wasting water on the crops it works. Once it's built it'll never waste water compared to NOT using it. This would serve as a good learning tool for new players to figure out how to operate it, and shape the layout of the farm over time. It'll never pay off the cost of even the sprinkler pipes though:
3 steel = 0.6 kero
Piston blank = 0.04166 kero (water)
2 Rods = 0.08333 kero (water)
2 pipes = 0.0625 kero (water)
Precision piston = 0.03125 kero (water)
Steel valve = 0.03125 kero (water)
Nozzle body = 0.03125 kero (water)
Total: 0.85
This breakdown shows the cost of one sprinkler segment, assuming you get 6 operations out of each "hot" process, and 8 operations out of each "cold" process. The "hot" processes are the piston blanks and rods which require hot steel. These don't stack and are trickier to handle than "cold" processes that just take normal steel. I think 6-8 is a fair allotment, but it doesn't make up much of the cost, as steel takes a bunch of kero.
Each sprinkler segment makes 1 bowl of water per operation, so the break even point is as follows:
0.85÷0.025=34
That's a lot! Sprinklers take generations to pay themselves off, but unlike plows they work for gooseberries and milkweed, so it's a realistic number of runs. That's not counting the cost of operation:
(X*0.85)÷((X-2.666)*0.0025)
simplified:
34X÷(X-2.666)
Here we have arrived at the profit per run for a given length of X. The curve is fairly sharp, flattening out at around lengths of 15 to slowly approach the limit of 34. It's a promising curve until we take into account the cost of the engine:
((X*0.85)+5.17)÷((X-2.666)*0.025)
Now the curve has flattened quite a bit. The dropoff in cost is slow and we'll never get to that limit of 34. That's what we're left with though. There's nothing more to do really besides tweak the cost of the engine or maybe the cost of the pipes by adjusting how many operations you get out of each newcomen firing, or perhaps account for tool use. I think this is good enough though, so I've made a graph:

Some notes:
Basically don't purpose-build an engine for sprinklers unless you really, REALLY have nothing better to do. It might just kill your society. Instead go look for a spare engine from dead towns. If you can find one, hell yeah build it.
Never plant gooseberries on both sides of a sprinkler pipe, as you'll restrict your options for watering if the gooseberries are harvested unevenly, which is inevitable.
Pipe bends to redirect flow are inefficient and should be minimized. Each U-turn takes 4-5 steel, but the first U-turn compresses the length of the farm much more than a second or a third. If the sprinkler pump is on one end of the farm, the U-bend on the opposite and points of interest like the well, roads or buildings are at the midpoint of the sprinkler length then pathing can be minimized without excessive U-bends. Consider extending the opposite end of a sprinkler instead of bending it around, or move the first bend further out before adding a second bend.
NoTruePunk wrote:Water costs 0.25 kero per bucket, so with 6 buckets that's 5.1 kero.
Did you mix up the position of the '5' and the '1'? Did you mean 1.5?
The digits being reversed is a coincidence
3.6 (steel) + 1.5 (water) = 5.1
What number did you use for the hoe calculations?
Each hoe use takes .00196 kero:
1/5/102=0.00196
Plus the cost of soil, which plow doesn't need. I can run through the cost of soil if you want, but it's fucking complicated and produces byproducts of mutton and wheat.