a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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the skilled distant relations matter more to overall survival than my newbie mom does.
1 - Arbitrary unscored factor X matters more to overall survival process Y
2 - Overall survival process Y leads to scored family member survival (and, perhaps, scored family consumption of my produced goods)
3 - Therefore, arbitrary unscored factor X matters to the score, and is effectively scored indirectly
3 is only true if 1 and 2 are true, in other words, if your family benefits from the community building you do then you're still scored as a good family member (assuming the balancing and everything works out)
Oh and a conclusion that I kinda failed to get to was: If there are players who don't care about being eve, being female, and having children and they aren't obsessed with scores then they won't give a shit about the genetic score, will ignore the mechanisms pushing them towards good family/villager (villager because usually what's good for the village is good for the family and good for the genetic score, etc) behavior and the game will react to their dismissal of those mechanisms by awarding them a low score and reducing their involvement in the birthing and family starting cycle. So it's win-win for everyone, the best moms are moms the most often, the worst ones don't have to deal with the birthing bs, and everyone in-between is gently nudged towards good player behavior... Assuming everything is all balanced and defined well, of course, which is no small task
I mean this is how it is already, more or less, but I think a more rounded approach to scoring your participation in your family's success would lead to a more reliable score which could be leveraged more aggressively by game mechanics.
Word of warning - locking up pies is a great way to get stabbed. So probably not the best strategy for raising your genetic score.
Letting other people's kids starve while you hoard pies for your own family is not considered moral behavior in the game OR in real life. If you do it ... try not to get caught.
I mean... it's pretty rare nowadays in real life to not have a family store all of their shit behind locked doors, exclusively for the use of their own families. Charity happens but it's certainly a tiny minority of the food that flows from a family's coffers, no? It's not so much "starve please" as it is "this is the food i made specifically for my kids, the public food is over there". I agree that it's a tricky thing though, but tricky things are interesting, and if you got genetic points for your own family eating your own baked pies then I bet we'd see more of that rather than which family you belong to being almost totally meaningless in a multi-family village.
I totally get your position and it's reasonable, although I see a few of the underlying finer details differently:
Perhaps I just have a different view of the game. I care about my family and my village as the same thing. As long as you are not actively harming the village, you are welcome within it and deserve to be helped. Not a big fan of encouraging selfish behavior to add "realism". In my opinion, it does the opposite - pushes people to chase after an imaginary game statistic, instead of paying attention to the needs of the village as a whole.
Even if we went with genetic score as the main point of the game (I'll come back to that later) I still think that making it only about your immediate relatives doesn't preclude any of the above. If what's good for the village is good for the family then by helping the village you're helping your family and therefore helping your genetic score. If what's good for the village ends up -not- being good for the family for some reason, ie, your family and village interests diverge, the other families are assholes, whatever, then this may not be the case, but that alignment of scoring with family competence (ie, not just being a good villager or good family member but knowing how and when to balance the two towards positive result) is, I think, what we want from genetic score... like what it tells us, and ultimately that it determines who is worthy to start a new family with a good chance of giving the greatest net positive impact on the family prior to death.
It makes interactions feel more artificial, rather than naturally occurring based on interactions within the game.
This is super tricky and above my paygrade to talk about objectively and with the right terms, but this touches on that slippery complex "artistic coherence" thing jason frequently mentions... Optimal gameplay should align with optimal experience? Something like that. Ideally we want the right interactions that we would normally want to do in this game that have a positive result on ourselves, our "teammates", the virtual world, etc, should align with the incentivization mechanisms so that good players who don't care about or understand scoring will have it Just Work that they score really high if they're playing well, and people who are minmaxers and only care about score and nothing else will have it Just Work that they sort of accidentally fall into substantially helping out their family.
Going back to the tf2 example... If I just wanted an ego boost and wanted to see my name at the #1 spot then someone watching me who understands the game but doesn't know my motivations may very well think that I'm going ham on trying to help win as hard as possible, when in fact I may not care about my teammates or our team's victory condition at all but the scoring mechanisms align my behavior towards that anyways. Minmaxers are gonna minmax and rpers are gonna rp, you can't change their meta desires/goals but you can try to align it so that they compliment each other rather than degrade each others' experiences.
But yeah, jason would be able to describe this in a less armchair-y way... Let's just say it's complicated haha
Everyone is randomly assigned to families, so your brother might be a griefer, your sister is a new player, and your mom is a streamer. If my distant cousin is the only skilled player in the village, I need to make sure that he better equipped and healed first ... not my immediate family. If he is another skintone, even better - maybe we can do oil together.
I mean it sounds like that distant cousin or foreign person is the last pillar holding up the village and if that person doesn't succeed then it's likely your family will not succeed, so a your-family-only genetic score still strongly incentivizes you to help that person. If you misjudged that person and they run off after you help them or they quit or whatever then too bad, you thought a villager was essential to your family but they were not and you should have spent that time on your family, and your genetic score would appropriately lack the bump upwards since you didn't end up helping your family after all.
But then again, I've never really understood the point of genetic score or how it could fit in properly with living in a multi-family village. I don't really see anyone living as a coherent "family unit" anyways. No family homesteads or houses passed down from mother to child. I rarely see my siblings after we grow hair. We organize and identify as a village, not as discrete nuclear families, so why score our success based on "good genes". It feels weird to me.
Yeah I 100% agree with this, the role of genetic score IMO needs more tweaking. I'd like to see genetic score affect your likeliness of being awarded a child, and much more strictly, your eligibility for eve, and perhaps even your likeliness of being a woman rather than a man. I don't think using it as an indicator of who is "winning" OHOL is appropriate, and having it award tool slots is iffy although I could see that making more sense if my suggestion were implemented since people who helped out with many things around the village would likely be the ones with the highest genetic score.
Seems like there ought to be a different score for overall OHOL excellence, otherwise OHOL is basically reduced to a birthing sim if genetic success is the only success. And yeah, we can define our own success of course, but again going back to the alignment of minmaxing with rping, we might as well be chasing after the same type of overall civilization success right?
OTOH, it should be pretty possible for someone to make a third party scoring app which looks at the 24 hour delay logs and grades in much more sophisticated ways about how often you've been the last surviving female and bloomed into a massive family below you, how often you've killed your own family mates, etc, etc, so maybe it's best to not get hung up on leaderboards
But yeah like for example it would make it worthwhile for a baker to lock up their pies and make sure their own family is where they end up so that they get credit for all of them. Or a selfless baker that believes that having a strong community is the best way to keep their family alive long enough to eat their pies might end up sharing them and take the hit of only getting credit for half the pies but perhaps tripling the chances of their family's survival in the process
I agree - hard working villagers should be rewarded for contributing to the village, not just "baby factories" or helicopter moms. And I think this will be even more important moving forward, since many of our villages will be composed of multiple families. Helping the village means helping more than just your genetic relatives. You must contribute to society as a whole.
Oh actually I was thinking the opposite, that helping another family in your same village, or even a too-distant relative would not contribute to your genetic score... Since it's a genetic score and its purpose (as I understand it) is to indicate how capable you are of taking care of your own immediate relatives. Maybe there could be a separate good villager score too?
I was thinking that adding this element of tension between families would mimic the awkwardness of living in a multi family community in real life where you have to weigh the good of the community vs the good of your own family, and might make multi-family villages a less obvious solution, or at least one with an added cost/complexity over having a single family village that trades/raids as needed
In team fortress 2 there was a vaguely analogous situation... The most obvious scoring metric is kills but players who only go for kills are not very helpful to the match objective (it's stuff like ctf, koth, etc if you're not familiar) so making progress towards the goal adds to your score also, and healing people who are getting points, etc... Basically most different activities that are probably contributing add to your score in rough proportion to how likely it is you're helping so that the top 3 scoring players who get shown as the mvps to everyone at the end are probably the ones pulling the most weight. If you're carrying the flag often and mowing down dudes as you go then you're gonna have the one spot for sure, but if one person is running the flag peacefully while their buddy clears the path then it might be a toss up, as it should be.
I wonder if you could get points for your family eating food you grew/baked/etc, points for fires you built from wood you chopped warning your family, buildings you helped on being inhabited by your family, etc... Plus it would make keeping families together more meaningful, and it would make multi family households more contentious (a good thing imo).
Sure it could be spammed/gamed but so can babies in a low pop server. Basically it should be balanced so that if you're doing lots of stuff around the village it'll end up being way more points than spamming out hundreds of fires and having bots stand near them or whatever the exploit would be. Would give men more of a purpose too
Stockholm syndrome is the purest form of joy
fug wrote:It's a rich and interesting dynamic. You deserved it for stepping on a wolf or something ask Jason.
For sure. Somethin like "You should be careful as a woman cuz you could get babies at any time, so you have to be prepared for it."
I.e., if you're a woman, you shouldn't walk outside all by yourself; getting attacked is most definitely your fault for being careless. Very realistic and such. Tiny big yikes
Are you #MeToo-ing the wolf?
Yes please *pray*
Free c-section, no wonder they're just popping on out
Also you can say Black, Brown, White, and Ginger. Coffee person??????
Someone suggested they be chocolate, coffee, vanilla, and ginger... I'm trying to help it along.
And sometimes I want to go ham when I game and sometimes I want to chill and hang with babies and observe the progress and directions of the arc. Sorry not sorry bud, it's a game not a job
More constraints is not popular. And since whether the game is good or not is no more than a collection of subjective experiences, popularity comes as what matters.
Although I can't speak for him, I'm pretty certain that popularity is not the key metric that jason's optimizing for.
jcwilk wrote:Having to face strife to maintain that stability rather than, eg, having a really high chance of being born into a place that can't possibly run out of water and just requires a little farming and baking to keep going til end of life, makes lives more interesting and unique.
Plenty of people have found that more stressful.
I mean, yeah, OHOL is kind of an intense game with a year passing in a minute. Some amount of stress seems expected, like how multiball in pinball is stressful as hell but also the best part.
jcwilk wrote:Agree completely, but for now it is what it is and non-content adjustments have to roll with that.
People are free to disagree if they like.
I was just saying that the existing content exists presently so it makes sense that the features would be optimized around the current endgame being endgame, it wouldn't make sense to build the system for a bunch of TBD technologies unless he has all the future tech planned out in detail already which would be weird to do without releasing any of it.
Your analogy could work only if people were clamoring for the sort of changes that Jason put forth. But people were NOT clamoring in such a way, so your analogy fails. In fact, there have existed several comments about how the game doesn't leave time to talk to people, and that it worked better in that respect previously. That's the opposite direction of which Jason has taken the game.
I was just saying there are different kinds of players, wasn't trying to say whether they were a majority or anything like that. Certainly the worst thing he could do though is delegate all his decisions to the players.
I'm on the fence about how I feel about it so far... It feels awkward, like the pieces don't quite fit together right, but I think it will be more interesting once the prior cities dry up. It feels like a good attempt to learn about possibilities of the game at least. To me, -something- is needed to make families matter more, if this flops then onto the next possibility.
Do you feel that all the game is missing is additional recipes and items? (excluding the new families thing)
Just played in a mixed village as a coffeeperson male. An elder instructed me to get oil, and most importantly to pass the message on that oil is needed and where the map is. I started trying to recruit for the task but all my breathren were already occupied with their occupations and there was only one birthing woman in our family left so I prioritized keeping her alive and warm and instructing her kids on what the task ahead is. At one point one of the other families came at one of our sole female children and mamma went after them and took them down, the risk of co-habitation. Luckily the kid was already instructed to put their own survival above all else so she booked it tf out of there in time even though they were a new player.
A couple generations went by as I helped out the new player baby and their descendants, reinforcing the mission of finding oil. I ended up dying without any progress being made but I did enjoy guiding the family towards a purpose. The town was in kind of a weird state, still riding on pre-update tech presumably but the resources thinning out and food starting to become less and less plentiful. I suspect that eventually the town would begin to starve having at least 3 different families in it and they would either scatter to find more resources or kill each other. Kind of wish I was there for that haha, but it's interesting seeing things slowly careening downwards
I would be curious to hear your good experiences with this new update. Not conceptually but with real experiences and evidence to back up your point of view.
"good experiences" is totally subjective, but the types of experiences I was missing prior to these changes are ones of struggling to find success. The only struggle was if I intentionally left my family and wandered off by myself or randomly attacked someone for no reason (both examples of non-optimal family behavior that aren't working towards anything positive) or worked on some optimization project that wasn't important enough for me to care about, because all the critical need stuff was generally already accounted for.
And how can you demand experimental validation for a brand new change from a game made by a solo dev? It'll be at least a few days still before the old tech has faded away. The intended effects of the change seem to mostly be big picture, ie, slowing progression down, adding reasons to interact and family-manage to make long term progress... He has to take risks and make compromises to keep making progress, diving into unprovable changes are in that category. He's likely the only one who has access to the evidence you're looking for through the server logs anyways. Anecdotes are not evidence.
jcwilk wrote:no one really gives a shit about what they're doing since it's gone in an hour
Speak for yourself.
I was exaggerating, but my point is that because this game is so much more ephemeral in terms of a player's properties and character it has the challenge of lower-than-usual emotional attachment to things and therefore long term big picture processes being much more challenging to orchestrate by players. So, it makes sense to compensate for that by preventing progression rather early on until the players involved are able to be competent community members across the board, not just good at grinding out recipes by themselves but also achieved unity in some manner with key families.
Towns like this give players the freedom to build radios, planes, and anything they set their mind to. Without that stability society wouldn't advance.
Yeah the problem is there was a bit too much freedom, almost like minecraft in creative mode. Risk and danger are fun, constraints inspire creativity to get around them. Having to face strife to maintain that stability rather than, eg, having a really high chance of being born into a place that can't possibly run out of water and just requires a little farming and baking to keep going til end of life, makes lives more interesting and unique.
Personally i think the tech ceiling is too low. I like to think that one day this current end game tech will be considered mid game tech.
Agree completely, but for now it is what it is and non-content adjustments have to roll with that.
Its pretty clear that the last few updates have been an attempt to make progression more difficult. I personally do not find these kind of mechanisms exciting, i find them boring. Imagine you are an olympic athlete and you worked your whole career to hone your skills and talents, but this year everyone is required to wear 50 lb weights in every event. Would you find that to be an interesting and exciting addition?
Change is hard, and often painful, but to follow your analogy, think of the athletes that love lifting weights and are excited about their favorite type of challenge now being integrated into "the olympic event" (analogy is breaking down a bit lol, trying to avoid the whole different types of olympic events thing since there's just one OHOL...generally speaking) they were tired of just running the whole time, they wanted more complex skills to be involved.
But yeah I agree that the specific features added are by no means exciting. Personally though, I'm happy to trade a little fun to make things more interesting, but that's super subjective of course... Luckily it's not my decision to make so I don't have to bear the outrage haha *popcorn*
Slowing down the grind does not make it any less linear. Where on the tech tree are there options to deviate and create alternative structures for society? Sure, now only certain races can collect certain materials but does that disrupt the order in which they are used?
Linear has a kind of slippery definition in this context, but I meant that there's not a single step by step path towards village tech endgame and stability. Previous to this change, sure you could eve into a shitty spot, but once you find a nice big greenlands then it's just a matter of how far you have to run to the nearest resource for each thing. Sure it's not that simple since it's multi-generational and not everyone is going to follow the same plan, so a lot of chaos comes from lack of coordination but with optimal play there's very little chaos.
With these changes now the village family needs to not just find other resources but other families and needs to maintain not just themselves but multiple families or ongoing trade agreements/stealing from other families and there's no clear path to doing that since the resources themselves (other families) are constantly in flux. That's a huge change. The consequences of that change aren't super clear yet (see the beginning of this message) but it at least makes inter-family interactions a very high value thing which has kind of been an elusive, missing quality to OHOL prior.
So yeah, I can't say it's a good change for sure, no one can at this point (although the cons are certainly already apparent) but I'm excited to see where it goes and believe that new positive directions of the game can't likely be found in baby steps, or at least not in a small amount of time. Lean into chaos!
It would be interesting to do a poll but we mostly hear from the people who disagree. There's not much use in making many melodramatic posts about how much one likes the changes, so it ends up seeming like everyone hates it. The compromises he made make sense to me, nuance is lost in this game when no one really gives a shit about what they're doing since it's gone in an hour so heavy handed forcing moves from the game to the players to give them clear issues they need to work around or work through "right now, lest they die" rather than "maybe, if they want more efficiency" seems logical.
It seemed pretty boring to me that I'd pretty much always get born into a city with endgame tier tech already achieved. Like what's the point? It should take many, many generations to get to endgame tech and it shouldn't be always even possible for a given town. Endgame seems like it should be something super rare that's an exciting experience to be born into with ever escalating complexities to maintain things.
Making lots of complex recipes is one way to do this but I think it's great that he's trying to add additional dimensions of challenges to overcome. Linear grind is boring
Sounds like we're just following different understandings of greatness so the argument is reduced to a matter of semantics, clearly not helpful to this thread. Happy to continue discussing it offline if you'd like, but it sounds like we're both satisfied with our own understandings. Nothing wrong with that
jcwilk wrote:Spoonwood wrote:There isn't a difference.
You probably think the Michael Bay Transformers movies are among the highest form of art then, don't you? The average person is an idiot not a discerning critic.
Calling the average person an idiot is elitist. You may think you're better than the average person, but that doesn't mean that you are.
I never said anything about my own ability to be a critic nor about yours, just that the average person sucks at it, evidenced by the top songs, movies, restaurant chains, tv shows, etc. Try filling your life with all the most popular things and see how much substance is left at the end of the day. It'll be all superficial, easy to approach, vapid fluff.
People, in general, by definition of what exceptional means, are not intellectually exceptional and don't care about most things. Average intelligence people who don't give much of a fuck about the subject material (because passion at a sufficient enough level to actually go out of one's way to learn deeply about the great and terrible things about a field is definitely not average) make for poor critics indeed unless you're criteria for greatness is "loved by the mediocre", which is fine but just an unusual way of defining greatness.
But yeah although I'm not being elitist about myself (at this moment, at least) I'm certainly being elitist about who should be trusted to judge things. It would be weird to not be elitist about greatness though, top tier is kinda the whole point of greatness ya know? It takes the exceptional to know the exceptional.
jcwilk wrote:I wonder if it would be possible to mask the coordinates from the client? Like set the spawn point to 0,0 client-side and then the server secretly translates between the client coords (personal) and the server coords (global). It seems really broken to allow players to know exactly where they are in the world by looking at underlying client data.
The server already does this, and has been doing it for about 6 months.
All the "coordinate hacks" people are talking about are relative to their birth location, which does give them a leg up, but doesn't help them find some remote location that they haven't visited yet in this life. Unless they know the relative coordinates of their current town from previous lives.
Nice, apologies for assuming.
jasonrohrer wrote:I'm not trying to make the most popular game in the world (Minecraft), I'm trying to make the greatest game in the world.
There isn't a difference.
You probably think the Michael Bay Transformers movies are among the highest form of art then, don't you? The average person is an idiot not a discerning critic.
Yeah true, if you cheat with mods it would be really easy to /die a few times and have the coordinates of each type of settlement. Would be really easy to cooperate with a couple people through discord to congregate at one too. The problem of finding and trading with other families becomes trivial when you introduce cheats and third party communication. A lot of these sickos actually like playing eve in the wilderness so I'm sure they'd be happy to start their very own mixed town somewhere too.
I wonder if it would be possible to mask the coordinates from the client? Like set the spawn point to 0,0 client-side and then the server secretly translates between the client coords (personal) and the server coords (global). It seems really broken to allow players to know exactly where they are in the world by looking at underlying client data.
jcwilk wrote:So why have pvp at all then? Why not just remove it rather than leaving it there to be the main/only way that established families can end via some disappointing monkeys clawing at each other process, as you put it. If people can arbitrarily kill each other then there should be very fleshed out mechanisms around doing so in order to balance it, which seems appropriate given that violence is how power struggles work in those times. If that's not desired then we should stop pretending like the system works and pvp should be removed
First off PVP should be fleshed out back into something skill intensive instead of the lobotomized version we have now. Back in my day the player who knew what they were doing won almost all the time but this of course meant entry into learning to do combat had high entry. Unless you knew the whole song and dance you were either the victim (like you are now with random attacks) or you put your foot down on meager trolls. Regardless of how anyone feels pvp should be it shouldn't be in the state it is right now.
Pvp is basically required in this game as otherwise you have no way to deal with someone who is causing trouble. Cursing only works after the person dies and unless you have a means to disable/kill then they'd proceed to continue causing harm. A good example of this right now is something like stone wall smashing (previous to them now having hungry work) You can't stop these people from destroying walls due to the ease of clicking down 10 walls then running. Unless you had an organized group waiting by the wall to attack the idiot he just gets to keep picking the walls as you're too slow to ever attack them solo.
Basically you need a way to deal with people who are purposely sabotaging things (destroying buildings as an example) or by accidentally sabotaging things (people who won't stop planting giant berry fields). If we didn't have PVP we'd need moderation and Jason + moderation go together about as well as a grease fire and water. Jason would have to moderate (which he doesn't want to do either way) to deal with people fucking up the server. The only time he's threatened anyone with a perma ban is for messing with the games cameras and not the people who purposely abused stuff like the butter knife to kill 50+ people in a day.
Agree with everything you said except that I don't agree that combat is the -only- way that griefing/incompetence can be solved, but I agree it's the most straightforward way. I'd be interested to talk through some possible mechanics around property ownership and trespassing/stealing/razing having a similar slowdown/cooldown/notification effect as combat does currently, but that's a whole complex thing that would be challenging to make simple enough to execute in a small sub-hour timeframe... So yeah better combat certainly seems like the most logical approach to investigate more thoroughly before looking into more complex options.
I have no idea why you'd find pvp or anything like that exciting in the current game as it's basically been completely neutered. Watch in the second video where people are tricked into walking around trees in order to bait them to certain tiles (this is back when combat required you to click someone and wasn't auto-aim all the time.) There's depth, and the dance rewards those who know the moves. Now combat is just a bunch of monkeys crawling at each other.
If pvp is going to be a dumbed down version of itself it shouldn't be in the forefront (this isn't a pvp game anyways) and it certainly shouldn't be what people expect from "a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building"
So why have pvp at all then? Why not just remove it rather than leaving it there to be the main/only way that established families can end via some disappointing monkeys clawing at each other process, as you put it. If people can arbitrarily kill each other then there should be very fleshed out mechanisms around doing so in order to balance it, which seems appropriate given that violence is how power struggles work in those times. If that's not desired then we should stop pretending like the system works and pvp should be removed
I was about to mention something about your fam. Even though survival is much easier now, families are still incredibly vulnerable. Especially when the player population drops. Seemed like all the longest running lineages this week died out around the same time. Likely by the same hand.
If one person wants to kill off a family they dont have to put in much effort. With the rift when a family died off it would bolster the remaining family's spawns and make it more difficult to kill them off. Right now i feel like every family runs a little thin and it leaves them all vulnerable. Im pretty bummed that so many awesome towns have been lost because of this vulnerability.
I think an easy fix for this would be to ratio the amount of families to the player population. So if the population drops and a family dies out it would bolster the others instead of opening up new eve spawns. The populations of families have been so low that i have yet to spawn as a male the past few days, making exploring for other families a liability. Ive only had one male baby as well.
In terms of danger and excitement factors i think this could be mended by making the eve spiral tighter. So families have a higher chance of running into each other.
Yeah good points I guess it could be said that staying alive in an established town, even with griefers, as an experienced player, is too trivial, but keeping your family alive (ie by preventing your less experienced family members from getting ganked) is too difficult and not in a fun way. Trying to bandaid the situation by making the existing system more or less extreme will just make one of those problems further exacerbated. Better self preservation would make griefers intolerable, more vulnerability would make griefers kill you.
As far as tweaking eve spawns, maybe, but that's fixing the issues of families dying out by simply forcing more babies in which doesn't feel right... The unsettled tension between griefers and defenders needs to be addressed to give griefer type players the incentive to band together as an actual town to successfully cause chaos towards others, rather than making the path of least resistance towards chaos being murdering your whole family as a lone teenager, which is boring and unrealistic.
We need better crime and punishment systems that don't require them to actually kill someone first (or attempt to if they don't start with the most afk target), we need raiding mechanics beyond declaring war and impenetrable perimeter fences to permit more interesting shades of gray in how trusted arbitrary players are, and we need more skill curve in combat to make victory meaningful rather than just chaotic and annoying.
The only real threat to living a full life once you've become an experienced player is other people.
Therefore, less people around you = easier to live to 60 if you're experienced.
Even in eve camps starvation wouldn't be a threat if it wasn't for your 5 sisters eating all the food within a 30 tile radius.
I don't think that experienced players face any threat at all as is, aside from being born into a very bad situation and doing griefing themselves... After camps are established I mean. Even dealing with griefers is more of a nuisance and source of need to rebuild things than a source of danger unless you afk. The generational flow is interesting though, at least regardless of how safe it gets there's still weird chaotic jumps and stops of generational families <3