a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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And even an very advanced player can die if there are no clothes, no berries, and it's a town where the wild foods are picked clean and the carrots are in an odd location. This is more true if you don't play with zoom.
I never used zoom. And tbh, if im a naked baby in a big town with nothing not even food I just /die, but this never happens because at the very least i can scavenge/stand on a fire until grown.
What wild food regenerates? Berries is the only one, right?
No, but I wont help you nerf the wrong thing again lol, I learned my lesson after skins.
The reason being wild foods are the least of problems since they dont help the whole pop as futurebird said, sheep and cows being powerhouses while pigs do nothing is much worse
Booklat1 wrote:futurebird wrote:New players aren't people with "half a brain"
This is exactly my point, new payers learn
Production efficiency doesnt concern new players in the slightest cause they arent producers, it just makes sharing harder
again, you're talking nice guy, im talking game balance. Even removing actual infinite wild foods make stew, pies and milk still pile.
After the first corn you can make 140 food per water when milking a cow. You wanna tell me that 4 bushes out of one water isnt too easy?
Easy isn't the issue. The issue is there are not enough ways to store the resources you create in each stage of production so you can't so a single job well for a life and build up that resource in many cases without making the town a mess. Not enough items stack.
Mutton is 3x as stackable as it was and nothing changed concerning trade. A lot of items were buffed to stack more and we still dont trade. most forge items stack now too.
I can easily carry 6 pies in myself, add 18 more from a rubber cart and its 24. Is this not enough?
I think the problem with competition is on a local level you'll just screw yourself by trying to hoard a bunch of stuff from your village whether it be pies, berries, or just tools. If a woman from a second village walks over to your own area it's best for you to work with her rather than against her because more babies = more chance for the town to survive for a long period of time. Competition on a global scale is probably fine but it's not exactly like you know who you're dealing with since they're so far away most of the time.
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We've seen the game broken with any and every real item being unlimited food is realistically the only problematic item to be unlimited due to it being our only need in game. Unlimited iron leads to people being able to do whatever project they want, unlimited water basically does nothing (you can see this effectively now), unlimited soil just allows problems to be fixed easier, and unlimited food means people stand around doing nothing.
I dont know what pressures should be dominant but so far its safe to say:
1 there should not be only one important resource at any moment
2 needs should effectively change as civs develop
to me sheep break 1 since it gives everything we need for food stability and oil doesnt function as 2.
So just another survival game?
oh ffs, if you think you cant keep survival and family simulator together you're missing the best this game has to offer.
try eveing a bit and see how struggle makes you care for your kids.
This game is nothing like others because its both very family focused and survival focused. At least it is when eveing and has been at times it got harder. If you arent rushing carrots to feed kids those might as well be just another drop in a nursery
property only exists for need or greed, rather design the needs than let people do it for alone for greed
New players aren't people with "half a brain"
This is exactly my point, new payers learn
Production efficiency doesnt concern new players in the slightest cause they arent producers, it just makes sharing harder
again, you're talking nice guy, im talking game balance. Even removing actual infinite wild foods make stew, pies and milk still pile.
After the first corn you can make 140 food per water when milking a cow. You wanna tell me that 4 bushes out of one water isnt too easy?
I always count the pies and check the food supply and almost always it isn't stable at all. It's low enough that newer players will die and you need to keep them alive if you don't want a population crash. Yes, with enough experience food isn't a problem, you can forage, make a pie or two put it in your pack and be set for life and work on something else, but have you noticed that when you do that you look up from whatever you are working on to find everyone else is dead?
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Your point being food doesnt run out but people are noobs?
People starving while food exists doesnt change that anyone with half a brain cant starve. This whole nice guy attitude 'think about the noobs' makes no sense because in a few days those players will just learn, you can even help. But doesnt mean a survival game should become club fucking penguin
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no towns die to lack of resources, you dont see dead cities devoid of iron and food, only players
This IS a survival game and Jason does seem interested in applying some measure of darwinism to it, competition seems unavoidable.
And yes, human experience was 'work so you dont starve' for long after agriculture, I may not want a grind simulator but at least the threat of death in a survival game. Just enough so i can either starve or suceed in bettering my village.
Honestly, we can already mass produce most things, your entire accessment seems like attempted deviation from the survival aspect of the game.
6. Most importantly: Booklat, what do you mean by infinite food? I'm not saying that there are no food leaks in the game.... but you guys need to tell me about them so that I can fix them.
I mean 3 things actually, combined starvation is impossible for good players:
1 all food is cheap soil/water-wise, and after pumps iron is plenty.
2 mutton pies and milk exist, one is a byproduct of the most important activity in any village, the other is so broken it piles when made, both cost essentially one water when done right
3 if food in town does run out we have fast regenerating easy consuming wild food.
so its an infinite amount of bad food and cheap AF good food that make survival meaningless after sheep
Question: do cultures compete at the group level? Are cultures subject to selection pressures? Furthermore, do individual heritable characteristics affect this group selection process?
Yes and yes, civilizations destroy others for resources, people get coherced into wars for patriotism and spread the ideas forward.
But one can always overpower others and this mechanic is a total disbalance of powers. We cant have easy signs because "you have to commit to leave a message", yet with a branch and flint you can make pens, digital doors, walls...
this mechanic wouldnt be half as busted if you gave up on magical gates and gave fences a cost.
To be clear, i AM against hoarding, but i also think this is a poorly designed rushed idea since its inception. We have property in bags, pants, chests.
We NEED competition. For water, animals, babies, trees, everything. Why is it that everyone has acess to iron? To rubber? Copper, alumn? Why is it that composting + any pump + nursery fire is an absolute meta covering all our needs for survival?
I think this hasnt been a population survival game so applying darwinism to it is not that useful.We miss the essential, the struggle to survive.
breezeknight wrote:cause we have to have a property option, the gameplay is stuck without it
We don't. Players do not live long enough to make this of any use, and there is nothing worth owning individually anyway. The idea is full of imbalance and griefing potential. The fact that Jason is using a game like Rust (which is nothing like ohol) as precedent for this tells you how this is going to fit in ohol.
we do actually have ways to keep property already. Bag + pants is 6 items. Yet we don't see trade or fights over items. People dont even use keys and locks for their intended purpose.
fences should at least cost kindling and not be spammable.
From my perspective, the guy running around smashing everyone's fences would be the griefer. If i saw someone running around smashing everyone's fences, my first instinct would be to assume them a griefer and move to resolved the problem. (I'm obviously referring to someone who has gets no approval for fence smashing, and just does it unilaterally).
But I believe this fence stuff might raise a possible issue when it comes to curses.
As long as the threat of donkey town exists, people will just curse those that don't share. Then we're back where we started. Property would just be an illusion because if you spend a life or two not sharing with the whole world, you might very soon find yourself in DT.
no one OWNS a fence or land just because they decided to infinitely multiply twigs into a fence. This aside, the issue is more with gates as the only way to overpower them is with murder.
this mechanic is spammable, hard to counter after set up and incentives hoarding. Any decent player can build a chest offtown or hide personal tools behind trees if needed, only to give back later. Now any dumb queen can claim a bakery if pop is low enough for it to pass.
From what I've seen, we can't trust our ancestors to build properly shaped berry patches. I can't imagine property fences or property gates will be any better. Enclosed spaces are already highly griefable death traps. I don't see the upside. How are we suppose to use these to improve the village?
By making eay pen as an eve. Which is terrible if you ask me.
4) "Property Fence Twigs" seem to be infinite in quantity.
also, non decayable
The only thing fences will be good for are griefing and cheap Eve pens you remake later when you get the chance. Ever since he suggested the idea I could see the type of issues coming up a mile away. He's going to spend three days putting this in game and spend three weeks trying to perfect it but the idea basically can only exist as dead content or griefer material.
In fact even cheap pens is an atrocious idea balance-wise as early composting brings the top of the techtree much closer to the bottom. People might start using gates with actual walls so even those will end up having to be breached. This system is a mess as a design, why have hopes for it's development?
Jason completely ignores that we do already have ways to ensure property but lack the needs to do it. Everything fences do can be done with locks and we only ever use them for griefing.
He even mentioned kin selection, selfish genes, without realizing that differencial survivability is needed for these phenomena. Thing is, as far as resources are concerned, there's enough for everyone. No one will fence ponds to ensure their kids have water because pumps exist. No one will have personal sheep because everyone could get a mufflon. Property starts to matter when people need it for their survival/wellbeing.
Always carry a hatched, they fit in bags.
Break all shaky fences, or at least make some holes.
Fence twigs dont despawn, people might spam for griefing, so Jason will have to work on that
don't let access be deniedd by these.
It is happening. I will quote myself
Glassius wrote:Again, deux ex machina giving narrativnes over interactivnesshttps://starecat.com/content/wp-content/uploads/disappointed-but-not-suprised-doge-meme.jpg
property magic for a survival game with actual infinite food, genius design
i think this will be at best a wasted mechanic, at worse a griefing tool. already despise this update and what it stands for. seems the most backward design i've seen
i'm kinda hoping this fails horribly, specially since jason actually think cheap pens are acceptable.
Well, hoping to avoid magic wherever possible.
Also, looking to design an imperfect system to increase the chances of interesting interactions around that system. Fences and gates seem simple enough (mostly just ordinary objects) and messy enough that some interesting things will emerge from them.
I particularly think making buildings actually work is much more urgent than spending who knows how many upgrades perfecting this. Fences are OK but the idea of gates alone already broke my immersion. One should be able to force its way through anything but gates seem like the ultimate power creep.
Sounds like a good prize for a contest...
"VOG for an hour"
what about "help design an update?" ![]()
my one hour would be spent ancient walling all cureent towns (leaving few entrances)
Tarr wrote:Should we not build sheep pens because people have the ability to release sheep maliciously? It's just as easy to do, and can be just as annoying to fix depending on what they end up doing to the sheep pen.
Getting multiple rope in a town is just as easy finding the proper tool/set of tools to let the sheep out? Also, with a large pen, it's not like they all the sheep will run out at once, especially if every tile in the pen has an adult sheep or has dung on it. Also, if you have a full stable bell tower base pen with only bottom entrances (or just one bottom entrance) hidden by trees or maybe sugar cane, assuming that all crops can work as corner entrances, which I'm not entirely sure about, I'm sure the griefers would like to know the correct tool to destroy it. Yeah... people will joke and tell me it's the shovel, because I'm Spoon and potatoes consist of a food source. But I got something wrong in a previous sentence. It might end up as a set of correct tools to destroy such a corner entrance, and the griefers have know way of knowing which tool it is in advance or how long they have to wait.
And of course, just getting the board doesn't fix the problem. It has to get turned into flooring.
people can also simply kill sheep
Only thing I really want to decay is dung...
Wheat and meat are easy to use, and it clutters yes, but it is better to not lose it, especially since this /die function has dried up families to the point that there is not every person in EVERY JOB at all times. Putting decay rate on them would only feel like a punch in the guts on those who are in brink of starving in mid towns.
I think this is actually what will make people value the lines they're in, an end to free food.
I disagree though, it is definitely griefing to turn a functional building into a burning mess because you're too lazy to make your own set of boards.
no one would reasonably do this
have Jason hire help
Booklat1 wrote:The thing with boards Spoon is that when you have big farms without spaces you make it harder on people picking berries for compost.
That's only for people picking bushes which aren't on the edges. And I'm not sure that if a bush is just one bush in, that such ends up slower. I mean if you stand on the edge bush and pick one in, I'm not sure if it's slower, or just a visual effect of you bobbing back and forth.
it IS slower and yes, this it exactly so people dont expand farms thus creating more berries away from the edge. At a few more tiles away its a pain in the ass.