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No, not we. You. Speak for yourself. And that you didn't do so, suggests that you might have a problem with honesty here.
No. Not me. Us. When i'm explaining my own reasons for not wanting to see necroed threads, then i speak for myself. But when i state that people would rather have new threads with link to the old ones, then it's not just me. There are several people who had asked you to do that. And i counted at least 10 who have expressed their annoyance on the matter.
I have seen comments with information in them in reply to necroed threads.
I've seen them too. Which is why i went with "mostly" instead of "only". However The quantity of shitposts on necroed threads exceeds the quantity of useful information (after the thread was necroed, ofc). A problem that i fail to see on the threads that want to discuss old stuff by linking to it.
I haven't been deciding for others. And I'm not capable of doing so either.
How so? I mean...
DarkDrak wrote:Secondly those who don't want to inform themselves about the old threads either simply wont do it, or will read a bit and and drop it once they realize what's going on.
Ah, but in the later case where they read a little bit, they've informed themselves some more than before.
I'm trying to get people to think and take into more information. [...] I want people considering my ideas AND the other ideas from old threads where I read them.
Doesn't this basically mean that you decide, on their behalf, to read some of the old comments?
You have insisted that I conform to your desires, trying to leave me no choice in the matter.
Then it's clear that you don't respect my choosing things here. You want to force me to behave as you expect I should instead of leaving me free to decide how I do things.
I respect others as long as their words or actions are not disrespectful towards myself or others. And, as i had stated earlier, i find necroing to be just that. Disrespectful towards others. Especially when several people asked you several times to not do that, but you had continued regardless. So yeah, i'm not respecting your choise of disrespecting others. I respect your intent behind that. To inform people, to discuss with people. But the way that you choosed to do that, when reviving threads, rubs me the wrong way.
Your objections, in the end, are based on an emotional reaction, not reason. And thus since you won't try to deal with your emotional reaction or rethink it, you don't have the fortitude to tolerate behavior that you don't like.
I am an emotional person, yes. No, i normally do tend to consider my emotions under a logical perspective. No, i do tolerate behaviors that i don't agree with. As long as they aren't being blatantly annoying. In which case, why would i tolerate them? And what about you? Do you define yourself a logical person? In which case, do you rethink your logical reactions under an emotional perspective? Do you have the fortitude to compromise with behavior that you don't like?
You have insisted that I conform to your desires, trying to leave me no choice in the matter. That is not mature. That sort of behavior is the mark of a petulant child who must have their way, not a mature adult who can tolerate behavior from others that does not fit their own personal code of conduct.
Frankly, i can say the same about yourself. You're insisting to make everyone conform to your desire of accepting necro threads, leaving nobody a choice in the matter, aren't you? I'm trying to reason with you. I'm trying to find a compromise. One where you get to realise the intent behind those actions, without being annoying to others. What i want is a win-win scenario. What about you?
And you are a manipulative person who should learn to respect other people's choices even when you disagree with them.
I'm trying to reason with you by defending my point of view and explaining it further until you can understand it. I think you have noticed by now, but im trying to mimic your own way of defending your ideas when people disagree with them. I thought it would be a way of discussion you'd enjoy. But if you find my way of doing things to be manipulative and controlling, then im afraid you should take a moment of deep self reflection.
There is no trick. That a thread appears at the top ONLY means that the last comment there is the most recent. And that's all it's ever meant. If you've thought that it means that the thread was started the earliest, then you had a false expectation. And when you have a false expectation, the burden of responsibility falls on you.
You basically use the fact that others have false expectations for the threads that they see on the front page. You use that to achieve your goal to get people to inform themselves on old topics. A noble goal, ok. But that's literally what tricking others means. That's literally what manipulation is.
You are acting immorally by trying to impose how you think you should behave onto someone else. I am not.
But you are. You very clearly are.
Necroing threads does not harm people in the slightest. People are capable of checking the dates or reading them. I will NOT be making any such problems.
Right here. You're trying to impose on people the attitude that you think they should have towards necroed threads, despite people telling you clearly that that's not what they think about it.
I respect your opinion. But, I get to choose my own behavior. [...] I already respect your point of view.
Yeah, ok, it's true, you get to choose your own behavior. I also have no problems believing that you do have respect for my point of view as an idea that's different from your own. But this is not like respecting the point of view of a non-smoker but remaining a smoker yourself. This is like respecting the point of view of a non-smoker but smoking in their face regardless. If that's the behavior you choose, then we still have a problem.
I do not respect your controlling attitude.
I know, it's really hard to respect the controlling attitude of others, when you have one yourself. I don't respect yours either. But try to work with me here.
I will point out that you are a control freak who can't stand when someone acts outside of the box of expected behaviors of people.
I'm really just the kind of guy who hates it when others smoke in my face. And who thinks that most problems can be resolved with a dialogue and some proper explanations. That if you let people know that what they're doing is posing an inconvenience to you, they'll understand, we can find a way for them to do w/e they wanna do without tormenting others and everyone will win. That's pretty much who i am.
Now, i'm gonna point out that you're a narcissist who doesn't care if their actions inconvenience others. This whole discussion made me realize it pretty clearly.
I'm sorry that i failed to be mature in this discusison. I really tried. In my defence, you have prooven yourself to be a very immature person aswell, Spoon.
I have to disagree for the most part. When i try to remember the old days when i was jsut starting and still used vanilla client, it still wasn't that hard to tell the level of progress of a city. those were different times, ok, but most stuff still stays.
- If it's an eve camp, most people are naked, there are no floors around, no carts, no boxes, no buildings, no sheep. No food. The farm is small, the forge only has one klin and the "bakery" is just an oven with a few pies and rabbits dropped around it. No well.
- If it's a small villege, most people have backpacks and at least loicons, we got a small shep pen, the forge has two or three klins, the oven has a work-in-progress flooring and maybe a box or two, one or two guys have handcarts, the farm is bigger, trees are being cut to make more space for it. Shallow well. Still no newcommen stuff.
- If it's a medium-big villege, most people are fairly clothed, we got a clear bakery (maybe in a building, maybe just with enough slotboxes near the oven), the forge has 2-3 klins and a newcommen made or in progress. Fairly big farm, probably with at least partial flooring. Deep well, maybe nearly empty
- If it's a town, it got newcommen tech, bakery building, organized forge, maybe a nursery, maybe some pads, you start seeing some fancy clothing around, maybe some horsecarts, maybe a cow. An organized farm or a disorganized one but it's big. The newcommen pump is clearly noticeble.
- If it's an end game city, you get lots of greifing, murder, people roleplaying around, nothing being done, but the whole place stands tall 'cause there's so much foor, iron, everything that there really is no more need to work.
Of course, the transition from one tier to the other isn't crystal clear. You can have a newcommen forge with lots of iron and huge flooring, but trashy bakery or the other way around.. but it all shows progress of a town in different areas.
I feel like clothing has a good tier level atm: in a villege you go from seeing everyone always naked, to most people partially clothed, to most people fully clothed, to fancy clothes. And since the latter are permanent, they make sense to make over fur clothing.
The well, as you pointed out, also has a good tier system. The water meccanic makes no sense, but the tier system is there.
The buildings got a tier system too: no building -> primitive floor -> pine building -> stone/adobe building.
You can see the progress in bakery as it becomes more of a building and gets more boxes and plates, pies, even without a tier system for single things.
You can see the progress in forge as it become smore organized, with more iron and steel and newcommen stuff, even without a tier system for single things.
You can see the progress in sheep pen as it becomes more capient, permanent and built closer to bakery. And gets a cow in it.
I agree with you on the food part. The food feels always the same.
I also agree with you on the rebalancing part. It makes no sense that the endgame food that takes so many steps to prepare is the worst food in the game (tacos with salsa, eww), while omelettes that are eaten in the eve camps are the best food in the game. (I mean, they're literally free. that's better than even milk)
Also i feel like clothing could do better. Late game you basically choose between permanent clothing or warmest, renewable clothing. Feels weird not to have lather options with the best of both worlds.
1. To give you rich, interesting, and weighty choices to make in each life.2. To ensure that each life really is different.
3. To force you to study and understand the most pressing problems facing your village now, and the problems it will likely be facing in the near future.
4. To enrich player interaction, communication, and cooperation, and short-circuit the tendency to "just do it all yourself" instead of coordinating your efforts with others.
5. To encourage trade between players.
6. To increase the importance of communication between village adults and incoming children.
7. To add an additional constraint to the game, because constraints are generally good. More constraints leads to more meaningful choices.
1. Failed for like 80%. The first 10 games or so you do need to make choises on which tools to learn, ok. Once you get 12 tool slots, you'll end up dying without using 1 or 2 of them most of the time. And even when you get to make chosies, they aren't rich or interesting. "I'm butt naked and i need to make clothes. I'll need to use needle and thread 6 more times in the next 10 minutes, then i'll never use it again. Do i run around the town now, asking if someone already knows sewing and can do it for me, or do i learn it myself and run around the town later on when im out of slots?" The answer's pretty obvious. Unless you need something that you can clearly see other people doing and you dont really need to go out of your way to ask them to do it for you, you just do it yourself and hope to get help later.
2. Failed completely. If anything, lives feel even more the same than before. When you have more tool slots than you use, there's no difference from before. When you have less than what's necessary, then helping someone out and learning a tool that they need, effectively gets you stuck from choosing a different lifepath. So if you went and made some hoes 'cause you wanted to be a farmer, you'll end up being a smith 'cause you don't have enough tool slots left to be a farmer. You're stuck being smith for the 3rd time. yay.
3. I don't understand this point. "This town needs some experienced players to save it" and "This town needs more water" pretty much sums up all the problems of every town ever since water ceased to be infinite. If the town needs stuff like kindling, compost, clothes, pies etc, then it surely arent the tool slots that make you realize that.
4. Succeeded. Before i could spend a whole life without saying a word and my last words would be "ty", babytalked at the age of four. Now I end up asking people to use some tools i dont wanna learn, i get people to ask me to use some tools they can't learn etc. Again, it's back to normal once you reach 12 tool slots. But overall i see more player interaction in villeges.
5. Failed miserably. Still no trade is happening.
6. I mean. 20% success? It's better than before, but not nearly enough. You either see no changes form before you the interaction between an adult and a kid goes like this: "hey kiddo, i need you to use this axe on some branches here, can you do it for me?" "y" "good boy, thanks, these too pls" "np". That's it.
7. ... no comment.
Also:
- It led to a real lot of (perfectly anticipated) wasteful overlap. Nobody's gonna go around the town asking who learned what tools and to remember it. So a lot of people in the town know how to use an axe, needle and thread, stakes, shovel. Nobody knows how to use a bowsaw when you need someone to use it.
- For most tools, you end up learning them only to use them once or twice, not because they are your proffession. You learn hot coals only to save the town fire, not to use them. You learn adze to use it once or twice to get mallets.
- The system feels imbalanced (as a lot of other things, but whatever).
I mean, you need 3 tool slots to be a baker: oven, knife and hot coals. You can add in a hoe if you want to plant wheat. that's 4
You basically need 2 tool slots to be a farmer: hoe and shovel. You can add shears and knife if you double as the sheepherd. That's 4
You need 3 tools to be town medic: shears and hot coals and knife. You can double as butcherer with the knife tool. You can tripple as carrot farmer if you learn the hoe. That's 4
Then. You need 3 tools for basic smithy: Klin, tongs, hammer. You cna add file, but not double as naything more than a smith. That's 4. You can double as a kindling gatherer if you learn axe. That's 5
You need 6 tool slots for advanced smithy: klin, tongs, newcommen stuff (hammer, roller, bore, lathe). You'll end up getting hammer 'cause you really can't do anything else with that tool set. that's 7. And better fill up the rest of your tool slots with axe and file. That's 9
You need 4 tool slots to be a basic carpenteer: adze, mallet, bowsaw, flint-tipped bow drill. You might add in hoe to grow milkweed. That's 5. At that point you'll better learn shovel and axe and start gathering big rocks and logs. That's 7. Then spend your life gathering stuff 'cause it takes no tool slots and you don't really need to make more than a few carts and buckets.
Feels really weird to have some professions that take up your entire tool set and some that you can fairly well cover while dedicating your life to other stuff.
P.S. Appreciate again you making a new thread and linking to the old one instead of necroing the latter. I can see that you started to care about what i was saying in the other thread.
The only thing worse than a dead forum....
Is a foum that got necroed and is now walking as a zombie.
Over at another forum I frequent, https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/in … tudio.720/, they ban people who repeatedly necro threads that have been inactive for over 30 days, and lock the necro'd thread. Why moderators aren't doing anything about someone repeatedly necroing over half a year old threads on this board is baffling.
Mods arent going to do anything until you report the issue to them with the report function. that's pretty much how moderation works. Nobody uses report function here, pretty sure most people forgot about its existence.
The whole point of this thread is because i dont want to settle it with reports, i want to settle it with a mature discussion.
Honestly, to me it's baffling that you think that reviving old threads can't have any relevance to present concerns. Do you think every point got considered in long posts by Jason? Do you think that everyone spoke up, when some people, as they put it, 'don't want to get involved in the drama'? Do you think that all old issues somehow magically disappear and get resolved?
Honestly, it's also baffling to me that moderators do that. It's an imposition on the freedom of speech. And for what reason? Because people don't want to think about old issues still present in a new context?
You don't get it. The problem isn't about reopening old discussions, it's merely about the way of doing that. When we have something to say about old topics, we don't want to say them in the old thread, we'd like to post them in a new thread that's linked to the old one instead. The problem about necroing old threads is not that people want to forget those discussions forever, it's that they don't want to be tricked to open the thread all hyped up for something new and be left with disappointment.
I'm not happy that people feel annoyed, but I still rather have people feel annoyed and read more of the old threads which provide some context than just skip clicking through links. Why? Because they're more informed that way. And I think it's better to be informed and annoyed than uninformed and satisfied. At least for some things.
We get it. If you'd rather be annoyed but informed, than uninformed but satisfied, that's fine. But dont decide that for others, wtf? Our opinion on the matter is that we'd rather see a new thread with a link to an old one than a necroed old thread. Could you respect our opinion?
Also, i'd argue that people arent really getting more informed this way.
Firstly, those who want to inform them selves about an old thread will do so through the link: for them there's no benefit in necroing an old thread as opposed to making a new thread with a link.
Secondly those who don't want to inform themselves about the old threads either simply wont do it, or will read a bit and and drop it once they realize what's going on. Then they'll forget it all the next day.
The replies that people leave on the necroed threads are mostly shitposts. And the part that's made of honest opinions could very well be posted in a new thread instead.
I'm not desisting until i get you to promise to stop necroing threads. Im willing to discuss with you about it until the forums get nuked down. I'm gonna repeat myself way beyound the point where i sound like a broken record and i'll explain myself until you can understand and respect my point of view. I'm not asking you to make it yours, i'm asking you to respect it. Even if you disagree with it, which is fine, promise that you wont be necroing threads anymore.
Personally, I'd find it a pretty realistic introduction. What families you stay in contact with could also influence your new dialect. An eve is born speaking latin, her family separates early on and by generation 60, their languages will end up like spanish and french.
In the current state of things, though, there are so many more relevant possible changes. Honestly, i'd look more forward to a twist in family specialization rather than in language.
DarkDrak wrote:i am gay
Me too.
Demn, you're right. Sorry, fixed it. I pinned jcwilk's quote on you while trying to group them.
Nice to read your analysis DarkDrak!
Hope it can be useful!
It also has other purposes. Such as making you kinda choose your life without damaging your moms score.
Yeah, i know. I was just kinda laughing at the irony of it all.
I'm pretty sure though that letting one choose their own life has never been Jason's intention, else, back at the time, he'd have gone with a selection screen instead of /die. If memory serves correctly, he added the feature 'cause of abbandonment and running babies. People wanting to play as favorite gener or straight up refusing to play in a town, just run off to die even if it meant sacrificing their time to do that. You can't prevent babies from dying on purpose, so might aswell let them do it easier and save everyone some time and frustration.
Fug, i remember when the issue was brought to us, common mortals, after you made several graphs about the relevance of the problem. Still sad about no secret choise screen triggered by SID.
Back to the topic, i agree that /dieing to become favorite race is dumb.
There were so many ways to go about family specialization and reaching the objectives he had in mind. I'd argue the way she choose was very suboptimal. The dynamic used for tatoos, for one, would've been much more interesting and fair. (as long as it kept out of essential items for survival and city development, like rubber).
Uh... I don't think I'm forcing you to read them or making any sort of threat towards you or giving you reward if you read them either. Before reading one of these threads that I have revived, you chose to click on a link from the main forums or from the discord didn't you?
I mean, tecnically, you're right, you aren't forcing anybody to read anything.
It's that, when i see, for example, "The role of males in the game by jasonrohrer", my thoughts are "oh yay, new buffs for males" and as i read through it, they devolve into "waitasec, we've been through this already. 8 months ago. wtf"
That's why i refered to it as "clickbaiting". When i clicked on that thread, I wasnt choosing to read old discussions, i was choosing to read about new upgrades. Which is why, i felt being tricked.
So, you aren't forcind people into reading old comments. You're tricking them into doing that. (Yes, the ones being tricked into it are partially at fault, i'm not gonna deny that. It's also my fault for starting to read the thread before looking at the date of its creation. But the trickster is also at fault here and you can't deny that either)
I'm sorry for being acusatory here, but that's what I feel.
I realise that you want to discuss with others about some aspects of the game, that you would like people to be informed about them too and that, ultimately, we all want Jason to notice some stuff and then to make his better. I also realise that you are necroing threads in good faith. But i feel that, in doing so, you are being inconsiderate to others, especially since you're provided with a simple alternative.
So please, can you stop necroing old threads?
Alright, you feel annoyed.
Me and at least 8 other people. Which is why i felt the need to talk about it.
Reading those old comments is good in my opinion.
We have divergent opinions here, i guess. That's fine, you dont have to agree with my point. If you can understand it, im ok with that.
But I don't know what to do about your annoyance.
Please, just let us decide for ourselves if we want to read them or not. Reading old forum posts 'cause i opened a link to that is clearly my decision, but ending up reading them 'cause a thread is necroed just feels being tricked.
Correct. I've hardly ever used the /die command. I used to when I'd get abandoned in the wilderness when born to a Mom on horseback. But since genetic fitness was implemented I wait until I starve now to punish them for it since they were making me take the fitness hit anyway, lol.
When /die was introduced as a fast relief against situations where you're abbandoned by your mom but, with the later twists, its usage is being avoided precisely in those situations
So... basically this upgrade promoted suicide.
So, I don't just say 'BUMP!'. I usually have some opinion on what got said in one of those threads. So, I think there's some new discussion there. You want to say that what I write is no new information, I guess you can. But seriously, with the walls of text I sometimes write, you think there's nothing in there?
That's not at all what i meant. What i'm saying is that there are three pages of old information that people have already read months ago. Then there's your new post with some new information/discussion/a new point of view. It's really annoying to read old stuff when you opened the thread to find the new part of it. Am i making sense? I'll try to explain myself better if i don't.
Because I believe that people are more likely to read the old information if I comment in those threads. And from you're telling me, they do read the old information after I've posted in the way that I do. They end up reading more of the old comments or the original post. I mean, how often do people actually follow links? I would guess less often than reading comments.
That's exactly the problem. There's no need for most people to read the old comments again. Maybe scroll past them to remember a bit what the discussion was about. But ending up reading old stuff, expecting to find something new is just annoying.
People do end up following the links to other thread if they're really interested in the argument and want to discuss it. If they dont follow links, then they either already rememebr the grist of it or had no intention to participate the discussion in the first place.
DarkDrak wrote:In practic, it's the same thing: you continue an old discussion, but there's a crucial difference: you dont clickbait people with old stuff; instead you present things as they are.
Ah, but see the thing is, I'm trying to get people to think about how things could be or how they should be, not how they are.
No sorry, i don't see how is this related to what i said. By making new thread and linking to old, you present an old discussion as an old discussion. By necroing a thread, you present an old discussion as a new argument. People still end up thinking about possibilities in both scenatios.
I'm gonna share my personal experience on this so far.
These were the goals for the upgrade:
1.To make life in each parallel family feel unique
2.To encourage players to explore outside of their village bubbles and find other families
3.To encourage inter-family interaction, cooperation, and trade
4.To encourage players to bridge language barriers between families
5.To make climbing the upper reaches of the tech tree less linear, monotone, and certain
6.To give you more complex, interpersonal challenges
7.To partially model a beautiful facet of the real world, where different people from different areas specialize in different things
1. Failed miserably. Every life still feels the same: you either do unspecialized stuff of whine in frustration as you can't progress watertetch while the town needs it or run around the map looking for the right fam to get some help.
2. Sorta succeeded. Now someone's literally forced to explore. Exept it would've been a lot more interesting if walking for a bit would actually get you to a different fam and not to an abbandoned settlement. Chanses are, if families didnt meet at the early generations, they wont just wont meet. Or they gotta rush a belltower now and wait for others to get to town to save it.
3. Succeeded for 2/3. There's much more interfamily cooperation now than there were three months ago. Still no trade.
4. Succeeded perfectly.
5. Succeeded for a half. It's much less certain, ok. But it's still linear and monotone.
6. I mean.....succeeded i guess. Not the kind of challenge one would want to have thought.
7. Succeeded half way. Different people specialize in different stuff, ok. Only Gingers can actually do anything with it though.
Also, for some reason, getting to be a ginger became pretty hard. I guess one has to be prepared to sid to get born into a ginger fam.
P.S. Appreciate you making a new thread and linking to old one instead of necroing the latter.
Spoonwood, everyone assumes that the thread is recent. Even if we could continue the discussion, it's much better to start a new thread and quote and/or link the important parts. Otherwise people will be constantly confused by old comments that were made in a totally different context.
Stop doing this
LOL, i thought this was a new forum thread! big_smile
Oh spoonwood, the one person who's made it his mission to gradually train everyone to check the date of the original post before reading a thread.
From this necroed thread: http://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6365
Wonder who necroed this thread from 8 months ago, surprise surprise
spoony - To be clear, people were saying you should just link to dead threads rather than reply to them... not reply to the dead thread with a link to the live thread.
oh wow didnt even realize
the F spoonwood...
Damn Spownwood! JUST make New Threads and link the old one in your post, DONT REPLAY, You confuse people.
Yeah, I was just reading this topic thinking 'is Jason up to something, more changes?' and then realized it's not a new topic! Please Spoonwood, don't do this.
From this necored thread: http://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewto … d=5824&p=4
who keeps necroing topics dammit
Let the thread die and start a new one
From this necroed thread: http://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewto … d=1401&p=4
Also another thread necroed:
http://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewto … d=8320&p=3
I think there was another one but i can't find it. Maybe i'm wrong on this one, but that's not the point.
The point is: Spoon, can you stop necroing threads please?
If i understand you correctly, you do it because you dont think there's anything bad in doing so. You're not wrong, it isnt a bad thing on its own. it's just annoying as hell. People open up threads thinking there's some new discussion, only to find three pages of old news. Why do it when you got a great alternative that people keep telling you about: make new threads and link to the old ones? In practic, it's the same thing: you continue an old discussion, but there's a crucial difference: you dont clickbait people with old stuff; instead you present things as they are.
oh, the old annoying times, where you had to run around for half an hour looking for a berry bush with 6 berries on it 'cause you couldnt use the bowl on literally any bush that wasnt full. And every time you were tending to the sheep and saw a berrymuncher pick a berry from a bush, your lust for blood gradually increased.
I don't know what was exactly the reason why it got changed as i ignored the existence of forums back at the time, but i remember the first time i could actually fill a bowl full of berries with berries picked form two half-full bushes, i sighed with joy.
Legend says that in the end of days when the earth is dying and the last of humanity is hanging by a thread, spoonwood and dodge will still be arguing on these forums.
...Why do i have absolutely no problem to believe this? demn.
Now that i think .. what happened to Morti?
JasonY wrote:Dodge wrote:mouse clicking is such "hard work" poor poor players behind their screen that "worked" so hard... lol
anyway still arguing weither it's possible or not doesn't matter, it's about intent.
I don't know what exactly you wanted to hear. The question was "why wouldn't you kill" and we provided a fair answer.
Accept it or fuck off.
It wasn't a fair answer because you are supposed to put yourself in th shoes of a griefer, to immerse yourself in the mindset of a griefer.
All the responses i got was from the point of view of the person responding as themselves but no as if they were the griefer.
Answers like "i wouldn't do it because i would feel bad about players that worked so hard" are still your own perspective and not as if you where a griefer.
The title of the post is "You are a griefer", so try to picture yourself as a griefer starting a new life, what could motivate you to not grief this life?
Keep in mind that negative motivation are not the best since they are always going to be fought against, you can implement as many negative motivations like donkey town and such, if a griefer wants to grief he will find a way.
Basically how to make the game in a way that even a griefer would eventually get immersed in the game and eventually forget that he was about to grief.
If you start a new life with the intention to grief and there's plenty of food around, no strugle for survival, no need for communication or interaction with others then what are you going to do? grief of course.
But if sudenly you actually need to cooperate, plan for survival, communicate, organize etc then you might even forget that you where about to grief because you get immersed in the situation going on.
Picture this scenario:
You are a griefer
You just started a new life, your mother carries you for your first 4 years
She then drops you in the family house and as you walk around you realize that there is absolutely no food available for you and going outside to try to find food would result in you most likely dying
The only food available is locked in a safe room ("fridge").
What do you do?
Reasonnably you would start to ask for food right?
And would they tell you?
That you have to work for it "here we trust you with that hoe, go tile some rows, plant seeds, water them and come back here"
So what do you do?
Well you dont have any choice, you start farming, come back and since you earned their trust they give you a bowl of berries, enough to survive for some time.
And what would have happenned if you tried to be idiot and start griefing right away by running away with the hoe for example?
Well you would have died and they would have only lost a hoe (stone hoe btw since they werent gonna trust someone right away with a steel one)
You finished your bowl of berries and now they want you to trade the wheat you just grew for pies with the baker living next door.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.
Eventually you're old, the final song starts playing, your screen turns black, you lived to 60, died of old age, it was a great life, you forgot that you where about to grief when you started that life.
Because every place would be like that, food would be a precious ressource that you have to earn, so even if a griefer would /die his next home wouldn't just give him free food for nothing and without cooperating he would surely die.
The baker needs wheat but he's not a farmer that's he trades for the wheat with the farmer.
Demn bro, you pictured pictured a Green Hat utopia there. Never thought that you'd sympatize with consumistic ideals.
Sadly it doesnt work. People will never work for food. Instead they'll make weapons and stab whoever holds permissions to the fridge. And/or they will curse them into oblivion. And you, the poor Green Hat will see the structure, that you made precisely to protect people from greifing, being greifed down by the very people you were trying to protect. AND you will be treated as the bad guy in all of this. The whole system just collapses on itself.
Despite that, if you're a greifer born in such a place, what you do is either to climb ranks, so you can watch people work for you and you can starve them at will, or you build a waystone in front of the fridge and enjoy your boner as the whole place starves to death.
That said, you actually got some solid responses to your question..? Why didn't you like them? If you start a game and set your objective as "having some fun at the expense of others", there isnt anything preventing you from doing it, just as there isnt anything preventing you from "having some fun with others". But there are several things that can stop you mid-way. And ways that can prevent you from doing it in the future.
It almost feels like you're expecting there to be a way to prevent that sort of play in the first place. I mean, there could be such a way, but how do you expect it to descriminate between Sociopaths and new players? Between bored people who spread greif once and cooperate 99% of the time and those who spread greif 99% of the time and cooperate once? Between poeple people destroying stuff as a means for a greater good and those who do it just for fun? If you want to stop the greifing probem at its roots, just make everyone be born with broken legs. You can't greif others if everyone's already greifed beyound repair.
Personally, I think that, in some distant future, a war upgrade would be cool. Imagine recruiting all the boys as soldiers and lead them as a general to another town 'cause your town is starving and a)you need to get rid of overabbundant mouts and b)you need to bring back resources and save the place. But, as the game is now (and has been for like, forever), there just can't be any war. The closest we got was when a few people who enjoyed the concept were recruiting a whole town, arming it up, then leading it to conquer another town. But that wasnt war, it was needless, one-sided slaughter, that didnt really help your family, it only doomed everything:
- The target family died (which is fine, you arent supposed to care for other families in this game, right?)
- Your original town got left abbandoned and is now unfindable (which is not fine. Just why? There was everything already.)
- Your own family is doomed 'cause they'll get annihilated for vengence (which is kinda destroying the whole point of a war in the first place.)
Also, now that we cant survive without the help of other fams, waging war is just suicidal.
The concept is interesting, but there can't be war before multicultural trade. There can't be multicultural trade before a sense of appartenence. There can't be a sense of appartenence if we get to live in every family and every town.
Right now, we have none of all that.
'Cause, as you were luring three bears in the town, a woman with a bow and three arrows in bp comes to you and says "First strike, mf. Next one and you're out" Then goes back to town and alerts everyone about you.
'Cause you already piled up enough curses on your acc that it's a miracle you were born outside of donkey town.
'Cause the first person you shot got healed by a competent medic and now you have a 200% movement speed guy running after you.
If you want to cause greif to others in this game, there's never ANYTHING that can stop you from starting it. But there are several things that can end your crusade prematurely.
Either way, there are several smart ways for a single man to annihillate a town. And they're pretty hard to notice too. If you're a smartass and want to destroy a town, the town's pretty much doomed.
Distance can be whatever makes sense. Maybe 10 tiles, which is a screen wide in vanilla.
No, you wouldn't repeat the command to pass the order. Would be automatic. And each new order would replace the last one. So if a king were to spam orders, most of them wouldn't get through to everyone, because there wouldn't be enough time to mingle between orders.
I can see that having the distance set to not be so big would also solve the spamming of orders problem... But if the whole point of issuing orders is to facilitate communication as opposed to just running around and shouting, imo 20-30 tiles would make more sense. And perhaps add a cooldown to prevent spamm.
There are cases where you want to alert the whole town (about a greifer or a supply shortage) and times when you just want to connect only the most trusted town members (decide on a new leader, communicate the location of hidden bow and arrows or food supplies). Wouldnt it make more sense to have two kind of orders, a public and a private one? For example, with the public one being transmitted automatically and the private one - no.
There should be a "message board" that can be built by players. When there are new messages a player hasn't seen it indicates that somehow visually. You would have to go check it and see what is being "ordered". It would display one message from each person above you.
Do y'all think nobody would ever look at a message board? IDK. People sure don't seem to be able to resist the urge to pick up every map they see lying around.
Personally, I cant help but to see it as anything else but a slotbox, filled with written papers. People would check it once in their lifetime and that's it. People can't even trust if the information written there is up to date or from several generations ago...
Since milkweed is not a food, it's not balanced against other foods anyway, so that's okay.
Wheat was originally a food multiplier (for pies), so it was fine that it had out-of-balance soil consumption. Now that it can be eaten directly as bread, things are a little different.
Oh ok. I mean, yeah, it makes sense. Stuff created with milkweed lingers indefinetly as opposed to consumable food. And wheat literally produces soil.