a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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I must admit I tried the griefing game a few weeks ago when things got stagnant. I agree, it was surprisingly easy to wipe out a village by picking them off one by one with a bow and then trashing the nearby resources, while hiding the other available weapons. Not doing it again, it felt dirty and nihilistic. Not that it mattered though because back then Eves could just stumble back into it and rebuild.
I am OK with this becoming a griefer confession thread. Come out, griefers! Confess and be cleansed of your wicked sins.
Yeah i agree with your sentiment on how it made you feel. Griefing has an even bigger impact now because if you do find joy in this kind of life, you can actually kill an entire bloodline, and the area will never be discovered again. It seems like both changes in the recent update (one of which was disabled), both support griefers. Odd.
The cactus god blessed me with shoes to benefit my murderous rampage.
Let me preface this by saying i have never griefed before, in pretty much any game. I've also learnt most of the things in the game and i consider myself an experienced player. So today i decided to spend one life actively trying to kill a bloodline. I spawned in a place that was doing quite well, had the tools, milkweed and farming setup for long term survival. It wasn't an easy task to complete but i managed to do it. Though it took my entire 60 years and i died of old age, with a bloody red bow in my hands, fresh from my last kill.
It's surprisingly easy. My first kill i was actually holding the bow and arrow in my hand. I caught a young girl away from the village so i asked her, "Have you", "seen wolf?". She stopped right next to me. The next attempt was on an older lady but it was a bit of a failure. I ended up shooting the arrow at the floor so as she ran away, i quickly changed clothes and hid the bow. She tried to accuse me and find an arrow but i tried to shake of suspicion. After all, i had different clothing. Nothing came of it. During all of this, when nobody was looking, i would dig up about 5-10 berry bushes and then report it to the tribe... "Someone cut the berry bushes". I would eventually get all 40 berry bushes over my lifetime without anyone seeing me.
A little while later i caught a person with a cart leaving to the north, so i ran to my bow and tried to find them. Carefully stalking them off screen until i caught them loading the cart up. Down she goes. It's at this point where i think it's all a bit too easy, with good planning and game experience. A few more kills happened with nobody EVER seeing me do anything. Nobody has an idea that it's me. Towards the end i get two more kills, a baby sees me do the second one but can't stop me, and starves not long after. I return and kill one more. Why aren't they taking my arrows? I get my arrow back again and, as my final song is playing, i frantically look for my last target. Killing them and dying shortly afterwards.
During down time, where it wasn't safe to kill, i must have hid about 30 baskets of carrots behind maple trees. I was constantly seeing new dead bodies of people who had probably starved. In total i actively killed about 8 people and at least 4 more through starvation. In total i only lost 2 arrows after a kill.
I never plan on doing anything like this again but i just wanted insight on how easy it is to kill a really thriving colony, without ever being discovered. Without anyone ever stopping me. My first target was my mother who had a knife, but i ended up killing her second. Opportunity is everything when griefing. I hope some day, it won't be possible to kill others, but i doubt that will change.
I'm horribly tired, barely awake and about to go to sleep, so hopefully my grammar isn't too atrocious here but it very well may end up being so
>>"And this game should always be about struggling to survive, at some level. It should always be possible to fail, both at the individual and village level. But villages were everywhere. You could always wander into a deserted one and pick right back up. Failure meant nothing."
The game was supposed to be about working together to build up a society and world that stayed there. It was hard to survive, but what you made was left over to make it so future generations could continue from where you left off. It seems that some of that idea is falling out of favor now. Rather than a wipe, dying out, making people constantly have to re-start, why not make it so there are other struggles that make it more difficult for cities to survive once they are built up? Maybe the cities attract dangerous wildlife, maybe disasters start to strike more populated areas but are recoverable and workable to get through. Maybe everything in the world ends up getting a natural decay level so there isn't always a big stockpile of so much stuff in some places, with things lasting longer depending on what they were made of.
>>"Building a village from scratch is the interesting part, and making a contribution that really matters is the most meaningful way to leave a legacy."
Except if the villages are just wiped away in the way that's being done now, you haven't made a contribution that matters. You have no legacy. You have nothing saved at all.
>>"Griefers are a symptom, not a cause. If you are struggling to survive, you have no time for griefing."
This here shows me that he really doesn't understand griefing at all, and if it's not understood, it can't be lessened. Making it even more hard to struggle to live isn't going to stop griefing, and in fact a number of the changes being made are going to make griefing all the easier. Griefers don't care about long term survival, they only care about living long enough to screw everybody else over, then they can die and be reborn to do it all over again. The only way to make survival so difficult that you have no time for griefing would be to make survival so difficult that you had no time to do *anything* at all other than survive.
>>"Your chance to continue living and working in a given village will end when the lineage in that village dies out. No more wandering back later and starting over in the same spot with everything already done/built for you. Each new line will start in the wilderness."
Wow, griefers are really going to have a field day of fun with that. Not only will they get to screw over people hard, but they'll be able to wipe out entire lines now and everything they've done so much easier.
As mentioned earlier I think adding item decay to everything would really be a better way to go. You could have repair levels and let things be patched up and used for long term, but the overall highest durability would go down over time so eventually it would have to be totally replaced.
>>"So, think for a minute before you jump on the review button and call me LAZY in all caps, please."
I wouldn't call you lazy in all caps in a review, but I might write here on these forums that some of these changes definitely feel lazy. There should be other things to make the survival challenge difficult when cities are built up rather than destroying everything and making everybody start the same things over again. You just want to make the current situation more difficult and add more failure so people will be stuck doing the same stuff again and again, which is definitely an unindustrious way to deal with the situation no matter how long you're working each day.
There are two things I'd like to see, more content and less griefing. By what you've written to us in the newsletter I can see you don't really have a grip on understanding griefers and griefing overall, so I don't know what to hope for there at this point. Re-doing the early content over and over again isn't fun for me, that isn't progressing, that isn't doing anything that matters. It means you're building it for a different type of gamer than me, you're building it for the Flappy Bird type of gamer that wants to do the same bits of content over and over at super high difficulty levels. You're feeling that ultra over the top challenge is what people want and what makes it fun and thinking that people aren't playing because they're not being challenged enough anymore, which to me makes me think you don't really understand what most of these players were looking for.
Maybe when you see these changes do not end up causing a big rush of people to return you'll understand a bit more.
The wiping was fine, the game will probably need to wipe multiple more times as changes come, and that's not what this is about. It's that thinking that's some kind of a solve and making sort of a built in village wipe as well that's all too easy to happen especially if griefers decide they want to make sure it happens.
I think I need to go away and give the game time to mature, and I will return one day in the future to see if it became something I can enjoy or not.
I agree. It does seem like he is out of touch with why the players play. Naturally as new content is added, players become active again. That's the natural flow of a game in development. The problem comes when the new content isn't advancing the top of the tech tree. The game only stagnates, because once u have all the tools and wells, there's nothing left to aim for above that.
One thing i'd like to see would be flint and steel. Why after we master the ability to make tools from fire, can we not make tools to make fire? Why do we not have crops like potatoes, corn or beans? Instead of removing the existing content like wheat and pies, we should be getting more content that makes people rely less on carrots? I think we'd all welcome new things to farm, instead of finite farming and harder and harder changes to existing methods. Why fix what wasn't broken?
The update that made BOTH berries and wheat useful again was amazing. It made existing content useful. This is the same as adding new content. But with the latest update it feels like content was actually removed from the game, just to make the game "harder".
fragilityh14 wrote:...
Some things, such as rabbits, cactus fruit, and milkweed don't start their cycle until a player sees them. If you go somewhere and all of the milkweed is new, none of the cactuses have fruit, or most noticeably, none of the rabbit holes are family rabbit holes, you are in new territory. This is why we're seeing so many abandoned rabbit holes right after the apocalypse.
This means when you come to a new camp it is important to run around exploring the immediate area- for its own sake- so rabbits, milkweed, and cactus come into production. (I can't think of anything else this effects...it may have the effect of waking up the bears and wolves...)
what do you mean by "abandoned rabbit holes" ?
an abandoned rabbit hole is actually abandoned, what you see is indeed new rabbit hole with growing rabbits, that needs only timean actually abandoned rabbit hole, one where the rabbit was captured without the young rabbit present near the mother rabbit, won't respawn (at least not in forseeable future)
& i agree with the cactus fruit, saved my life several times, & so did oc berry bushes
- - -
Yes, so tell me what happens when you carry a snare into a newly generated area? You trap the non-family rabbit hole and what does it become?
The apocalypse was one attempt at an end game. It also was an attempt to create a momentary shared collective experience. To create a memory. "Were you there back when there was an apocalypse? Wow, what a day that was!"
But allowing one faction to end the game for everyone really isn't that interesting of an end game. Why is why I built-in an OFF switch and used that switch right away.
I had a feeling this was the true purpose but you've literally just confirmed it for me. You wanted to reset the maps because it was getting hard to optimise the game having all of the things in the world already. So you made "content" that easily allowed anyone to reset the world. I wonder if you expected 5 Apocalypse to happen in 1-2 days? Probably not.
The main point of this "content" is so you can absolve yourself of any blame. "The players chose to reset. It wasn't my choice at all. I am not to blame."
This is also what makes the higher number servers so popular. People can keep working on the same village week after week there even with low populations, because they can all find their way back, even if there's no continuous family line.
Have you asked yourself why people enjoy the game that way? Why do i enjoy spawning as a baby, in a place i used to live a few days ago? Why do i enjoy seeing the progress it made while i was gone? Why do i enjoy continuing my work from a previous life? That is the point of this game. Getting one hour, to make a small difference. If your intent was to make family lines the focus of the game, then why make it impossible for farming to last? You made wheat and carrot farming unviable and finite. Explain how you're meant to LAST LONGER if this is the content you put in the game? You're not making any sense. Why do you use the word "popular" and say no, this is a bad thing?
Ah, it seems that everyone suddenly woke up!
Apocalypse is off again, for now.
But it created a cleanse that was sorely needed.
I'll be working on some other stuff today that will create more of a "natural" apocalypse when a village dies out for real (the next Eve will spawn very far away, in the wilderness). That, actually, might have been the problem. Everything was happening in the middle, very close together, and when a village would die out, a later generation would just resume it.
You would walk in any direction and find a village. It was getting very crowded.
The longest generation is 31. That's only 7 hours!
BUT some of these cities have clearly been developed for WEEKS. That means that after people die out there, later players discover and resume.
I do want ruins to be discovered sometimes. BUT the main game should be figuring out how NOT to die out. Dying out should matter. It should be a big deal. The village should be lost if it happens. Not just "respawn as Eve and follow the road back to the village and continue."
I don't think you understand why people play your game man. Just saying. The value we all find seems completely lost on you.
The apocalypse can be triggered by one person? What a joke. It should require at least 3 people, similar to how you need 2 people to break a wall. All you've done is given griefers more power.
There is a karma system. If you fuck with my shit, i'm going to get the knife or bow that i hid earlier and murder you. Don't fuck with me and what i'm doing lol. One of the most interesting moments was when this dude walked up and started picking the carrots we desperately needed for seeds. So i gave him a quick poke with the knife in my backpack and then i stood over the remaining patch with the knife in hand. The others around kept farming, and i kept our village alive lol.
Nothing more annoying than someone tidying stuff you're actually in the middle of using. Then you have to chase them down to get your tongs back or your sharp stone because it was clearly better to have it stored in a basket, 5 screens away from where it was being actively used. With that said, as the only person there, grouping items in appropriate locations, it's definitely a useful task to accomplish. However, with limited knowledge of what everything was for, i don't know if you'd be able to organise the right tools into the right places ![]()
Yes, but laura, you are sort of proving my point, we are all sort of set in our ways. Which is cool if you like it, if you just want to farm, farm away. But me, I want to further society. I want to maybe be the first player with a flying car, I'm sure I won't be, but that's the challenge I take. More or less, I feel like we are stuck in a dark age because we have found sustainability, but aren't furthering society anymore.
The problem is, there are only so many jobs or tasks that need doing, given the current tech tree. If you are born into an advanced area, you can make compost, farm and make pies. Most people will have clothing. There's already a milkweed farm. There are plenty of tools. What i think is important now is to wait for more advanced things and horse's seem like a good step.
Separate the plot for seeds into another area nearby.
The Three Laws are outdated. Milkweed is now very renewable with easy compost, and drying ponds isn't really a problem (it's not permanent damage), unless it has a goose. Family animals is still important though. I'd add don't chop down maple trees, and yeah carrots is important, but not super important.
The problem is, if you pick milkweed in an area and it never grows back, you have to travel miles to find new seeds to start another farm or have any at all. This is the same thing as killing the area's resources. If you take the time to setup a farm of milkweed, are you suggesting that people just pick it all when not fruiting? Drying a pond is permanent damage if they do it to all the ponds.
As a parent, you should take some time while raising a baby, to make sure they know the laws of the land. To make sure the land can always sustain life and civilisation, before they go and break one of the laws, and destroy the natural resources. After all if you're just sat at a fire feeding them, you can spare the time to type.
What are the laws?
Never dry ponds
Only hunt family animals
Only pick fruiting milkweed
Everything else doesn't really matter in the long run but these laws are important so that future generations aren't unable to survive.
Edit: Thinking about it, shouldn't there be a fourth, to not cut down wild carrots?
You do not need a credit card for paypal, which is why paypal is such a nice thing to have.
You're still paying with a card if you use Paypal, unless you're getting someone to send you money lol...
To be fair, where else are you supposed to advertise? Would be nice to have a subforum where people can find video content.
Can you login on multiple devices at the same time? If so, i'd say that's going to be a piracy problem.
There's no room for error. You kill the griefer or you all die. Sorry.
Someone was making a knife blade near me so i swooped in and took it and hid it. They may not have had any bad motives but i stopped that griefer in their tracks, in my eyes.
If you do that, then your useless children who die would basically doom your civilisation. It's your choice whether to care for those children. That is all!
Your game is out of date.
Making the soil to replace the dead bush is a huge waste when you can just water it...
Your main complaints are solved by simply making clothing...
Don't let knives laying around in the open. Or better yet, don't craft any to begin with. If you see one, get rid of it and hide it somewhere good.
Or arm yourself with it and be the white knight of your camp.I mean, I don't even know what the knife is really used for. Is it really that important to craft one right now?
Like, is it really worth crafting one for the risk of having someone kill an entire civilization?I doubt it's worth it.
That doesn't stop any griefer from crafting them and you're expecting people to carry the weapons around at all times? A griefer can easily hide any weapons that would stop them before they start killing... Remind me why PvP is in this game?
This needs more attention
Just pick the milkweed when not fruiting if you really need the stump gone.