a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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so, who agrees that if this is added the best play is to make biomes only slightly bigger and more viable?
jasonrohrer wrote:What kind of needs?
Thirst seems like the most obvious additional need, but it's not too different from hunger, so I don't like it.
Maybe food could eventually go stale/spoil, creating a need for preservation and refrigeration. Or even just keeping the food covered like in a room so it's not exposed to the elements could help. Wouldn't be needed early game, but when towns get going if they want a surplus of food they'd need to do it.
Disease? Could happen from corpses which is easily solved by not sticking around them and burying them, and could start to be a real issue after you get animals like sheep and especially from their dung. There could be a whole immune system bar like there is a food bar that you see drop when you do unclean things, or just a low chance random event when you do unclean things, or just a couple phases of getting sick where your face turns greener. Once you have your sheep pooping that solves the need for soil, but then it makes the need for medicine/sanitation/clothing//hygiene to cure and prevent disease or people gonna die. Plagues were deadly in the past and they were cross-over from animals. Would be funny to see town executions of sick people to prevent spread.
btw, I think every biome being livable would be bad for exactly the reasons Jason gives. Major duplication of work and huge balancing issue. There's already a major source of variety in what role you choose to take with your life. Farm, hunt rabbits, cook, smith, doctor, etc. Hopefully more roles as things advance.
yeah, Jason has talked about diseases and spoiling before.
I don't think all biomes should be liveable either, but most biomes should be slightly more liveable (specially early game mid). That adds variation without making all biomes alike (which adds no variation at all really).
Looks bad imo. Just ridiculous... I'd never find enough without the mod.
I eagerly await for A. ground iron ore spawn buff, B. more ways to get iron.
Mines should have floors instead of giving out everything at once, and they shouldn't collapse randomly, unless it's something that can be fixed.
Ive talked to you about this before multi, I think you know I agree with you on the bigger picture (ground ores take a lot of work to gather, mines could use some reword, lie having a middle tier), but I dont think your tests prove your point at all and for reasons you've said yourself. What you did wasnt a "how much iron can I haul back?" test or "can i get at least 8 iron?". Your methods were indeed more fucused on scanning the badlands, which is great for having images of how rare iron really is, but is hardly the same type of work you take to haul back some ores.
I usually get the first 3 or 2 ores really really fast and that already gives my settlements time to breath, gives people work to do, stuff starts working nicer overall. Axe and shovel do give the towns some stability in more water and slow burning fires. But, that being said, 3 iron isn't enough for iron age, nor for making it into sheep. In fact, If you're unlucky you may have run out of tilling power already.
I think the issue of iron is precisely in the transition from ground ores to mines. I can, normally, in less than an hour and with no mods get a village 8 iron. I can't easily do so while still finding a mine nor while taking care of other obligations. But it is definitely doable. In fact, If I only needed to get the first 3 irons and was sure someone would get the other 5 i'm sure i wouldn't be too much work for anyone, but who goes finding iron?
If we want iron reworked we absolutely need to organize this data and point exactly why the lack of iron is too much of a problem. Currently its because getting thee first 8 is pretty hard and no one seems to want to do it.
it's already hard enough that the water dries up and we have to go ten miles to the well.
Use cisterns
Towns dont really run out of water late game. Not if people are using their resources correctly.
People think cisterns are made to store water from ponds and wells far away but that is just one of it's uses. The idea is to build cisters so that you can empty full wells into them, this way they start refilling earlier and don't get their timers reset each time someone gets water from it. Cisters allow for efficient management of your water supplies. How often do you see towns with full cisterns?
This also goes back to other questions like, should people make farms bigger than their water suply allow? Should people opt for food types that cost less water?
Until few weeks ago we couldn't even tell when cisterns were half full so I understand why people wouldn't use them to thir full extent, but a town with few deep wells, few cistens, enough buckets and carts can't possibly run out of water easily if players are paying attention to it.
it doesn't though. I don't use mods and have obtained similar results, its just a very grindy (and more dangerous) job.
The game is playable and towns can achieve iron age status, it just takes a great amount of grind to get first tools and some luck to find mines.
Tramax, I agree that iron mines shouldn't seem rarer than gold ones. Vein spawn rates didn't need to be nerfed I think.
I dont think iron is too rare as the game is right now but i'm sure it'll be after the map changes.
I do believe that the way iron is right now it is an extremetly grindy task to gather it, so why not improve anyway?
Have any if you tried to spend an entire life gathering iron?
this is the only way we'll gather accurate data for wheter iron is too scarce or not. I think It's no scarce yet, but will be after jungles, as twisted said.
I actually agree with you. From what I've gathered, even if i get about 10 irons by myself in an early gen life (with no zoom) it's quite a a lot of work. That would be fine to me, but now that we're getting jungles, potentially making all biomes sparser or smaller, it may become simply not viable to keep iron as it is now.
Adding more tiers to mines would help a bit, but veins will definitely have to become more common and probably ground ore too.
I'd even suggest tweaking the spawn algorithm to increase spawn frequency in established lineages and decrease it - dramatically! - in new lineages. Expose your new players to towns; even if there's increased baby pressure because of it, they will at least survive to early childhood because noob moms will feed them. And if towns collapse from the pressure, the new players will start to learn WHY the towns collapse (no berry maintenance! no branching out to other foods! no basic tech and tools!), and that learning experience is an important part of the game.
Nerf the chances of eves getting babies and no towns will exist.
found 12 more iron plus 2 veins
Funnily enough I just lived a life in which i got exactly 8 iron back to my camp. We already had axe which is great too.
i've found the first 3 iron pretty easily in a camp yesterday. Also got an eve spawn near a mine but didn't play that life.
We need to collect more data, people. But i kinda like that right now we're in bad camp hell.
^ the problems concerning what you said are
1 shovel also enables wells, which on occasion there is a need to rush.
2 you need sheep for soil sustainability. It's not impossible to manage enough soil runs to keep most pre-sheep villages going, but that tends to be lot of wasted work that doesn't help the town progress. There are also occasions when you'll run out of soil and absolutely need to start composting.
I like the middle name thing.... I want it.
Aurora Aurora Aurora is a good name
so, we should just use quantitative genetics for skin colour and some extra mendelian genetics using marriage as a base sexual reproduction system and make eves and other single mothers always generate clones (except gender gets picked each time and maybe some mutation chance exists).
hoestly, I think automation is fun when you're trying to get it working, after that is just boring, right? Maybe it'll feel great to see for the first time machines that kill and butcher a lot of cows and drop burgers, but after you get those burgers ready to eat a few times it'll start feeling lame.
Automation could, of course, take maintenance, but i think that is even less satisfying work then grinding to get the products your machines are now working for you.
Automation would be fun once industry got more dimensions to it. Lots of gathering different resources, transporting, planning efficient supplying and power systems. It cant be just "i built a robot that farms for me".
Booklat1 wrote:That is still 3x as many tiles seen every second by the logic lily applied.
Not necessarily. Since in my math I defined a tile as the amount of space you can run in one second. You can probably run from the top to the bottom of the screen in a second and it definitely doesn't take three. So it is probably a lot closer to a 1 tile view than a 3 tile view. Though for the sake of argument, even if we went with saying you can see 3x as much, you still couldn't see every location within 1 minute of your home in a single life time.
You get to see 3x as much because whenever you walk in a single direction for every tile you walk 3 extra appear in front of you. in diagonals this is probably even more. I agree that jason underestimated some factors (did he take into account the time to haul back the iron?) and also the fact that cities need the first 3 irons really really fast sometimes (since you can run out of wood if you have no axe or whater if no shovel.
I did somem testing on iron gathering and, honestly, doesn't seem that much harder now. I even found two mines a tile away from each other few days ago.
Usually nice to keep one stump, like pein said but i usually take all other in non-fruiting stages, as their stumps will disappear faster and i'll be able to plant that same field again (can be annoying when all stumps take long to decay)
That is still 3x as many tiles seen every second by the logic lily applied.
good luck enforcing that
^ you're assuming we have a single tile field of vision
Looks very promising for new kinds of games and more roleplay. But Jason I want to say that maybe before start to add new stuff you should first fully explore things we already have that have a lot of potential but don’t have much use now. Well that’s my opinion
I agree but this update does that. Worms did nothing for a while and now you can use them to fish. We still hav dogs and pigs to be reworkekd but fishing is a good thing.
yes, this could precede heat strokes and freezing death, i miss being able to die because of temperature (but it felt bad before since it had to do with food decreasing stupidly fast)
Please Jason, please put Mendelian genetics into the game.
He can't. Mendelian genetics are sexually inherited and diploid, which can't be done if females are th only ones to reproduce.