a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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Instead of making rubber an exclusive material that can only be produced by multiple races. Perhaps there could be a quality tier that reduces the production efficiency.
Low grade materials can be obtained by any race. High grade materials can only be obtained by the races specific to that biome.
This would only apply to latex, sulfur, oil, and palm kernels.
Would work something like this:
[Low grade palm oil + low grade latex + low grade sulphur = one rubber]
[High grade palm oil + low grade latex + low grade sulphur = two rubber]
[High grade palm oil + high grade latex + low grade sulphur = three rubber]
[High grade palm oil + high grade latex + high grade sulphur = four rubber]
[High grade crude oil = 100% production rate]
[Low grade crude oil = 50% production rate]
Anything other than these resources would be exclusive to the race of each biome and would likely be highly valuable to other races (gold, alum, tomatoes, etc)
I think a system like this would still promote finding other families and trading/sharing high grade resources. It would also give each family a fighting chance at surviving while still making it a disadvantage to go it alone/not work with other fams.
Let me know what you think.
With the current system when you type /hatchet it shows the last stage of the crafting process.
What i propose is a system that doesnt work in a descending order but rather an ascending one.
So when you type /hatchet it would show the first step with the blue arrow as a guide.
[Straight shaft + Sharp Stonex2 = Short Shaft]
[Milkweed + Milkweed = string]x2
[String + String = rope]
[Rope + Short Shaft = Tried Short Shaft]
[Tied Short Shaft + Sharp Stone = Hatchet]
As the system stands you end up having to type [/hatchet - /Tied Short Shaft - /Rope - /Short Shaft] to get to the beginning of the process and likely tab endlessly to find the recipe while holding the origin material.
I know this would be a huge pain to implement given there is so much structure already established, even onetech is oriented this way, but i do think it would be highly beneficial to the learning process. Especially for new players.
That being said i do enjoy the raw nature of learning this game provides and i think a system like this would take away from that process. It would not promote teaching or learning from other players. It would likely make crafting too easy and not as satisfying to eventually understand.
An alternative would be something like a blueprint. [Blue paper + Craftable item + Charcoal pencil = Blueprint(Engine)]
That would still pose the same issue of making things too easy and removing the human element.
I never really use the hint system unless im stuck and too lazy to look it up on onetech. Ive pondered this since i first started playing and i thought i would throw it out there. I dont think a system like this would promote an atmosphere of learning and inclusivity but none the less thought it would be worth bringing up.
If anyone else has ideas about ways to ease the learning process i would be interested in hearing them. I worry though that most systems would take away from one of the most interesting aspects of the game. I also worry that that aspect contributes to the difficulties in player retention.
I hope you enjoyed me talking myself out of this idea in the middle of writing it up. Let me know your thoughts.
I find the most illusive and difficult griefers to deal with are ones that are not obvious. They steal things when no ones looking, bring in bears, let loose pigs, destroy kilns. You dont need to kill in order to kill a town.
In terms of griefer managements i do think we could use more tools. Main issue with restrictions or adding tools to stop them is the risk of it aiding griefing as well. Knives and bows are a double edged sword. They are a useful tool for griefing but also the main way to end their terror. I think a system that aids in stopping griefers but doesnt give them any more weapons in their arsenal is a good route.
Not sure what a good system or tool for that would be. I think a buff to cursing would be nice. Maybe if enough people curse you in the area you poof out of existence. Also removing the age limit would be nice. Something where you could type a full name at any age. /curse Kirkpatrick Giovanni for example.
My interest is enabling some structure that makes associating griefers easier. Gomez, you may be a good detective but you cant be in every town all the time enforcing the law. Players who just want to work and make a difference in their own way dont necessarily take the time to do what you do. Expecting them to do that and expect that as the meta is silly. Im glad you enjoy that method but most players dont jump into that form without some grease. What im looking for is some of that grease to motivate players to associate and understand griefers so we have a balanced amount of weapons to counter them.
It doesnt necessarily need to be a box that tells the truth but expecting players to put in the time and effort to find that stuff out by the hour every hour is silly. Most just want to play the game and not deal with the bs. I dont need it to be a polygraph or anything along that function but something that enables players to counter griefers is a win imo. If you think that's a bad idea than you clearly think griefing is exciting and enjoy it in the game. Honestly thats fine. Everyone has their own taste and i think those things should be represented.
My main issue is that griefer types are not getting the outlet they need. I like the excitement of griefers. Its annoying when its constant but i can feel the potential there. If given the right outlet with the right structure it could be a beautiful part of the game
Raiders and pirates have been a constant part of human history but the problem is that doing those things is easier if you do it within the family. With the meta knowledge we are all born with its cheap. There needs to be some system that enables people to play that way without it being pure toxic. There also needs to be some structure to help people manage griefers when it happens.
Its a broken part of the game imo and i would be curious to hear what you think would promote an interesting system. Saying you enjoy the system as it stands and having it change would ruin the experience for you is selfish imo. People who expect their agendas pushed on other players without respect for others playstyles are trash imo. I want to elevate the experience, not pour cold water on it. As it stands its molten and needs a mold.
My idea is as much magic as the radio is. I would be curious to hear more about your authority figure idea and how that would work. I worry about abuse with something like that though because a griefer in that position is only going to make more problems. Personally i think the main issue with griefing is not being able to know who is one or not. A system that helps associate that would be good imo. Whatever it may be.
So i had this idea last night. Its pretty half baked but i think something along these lines could help with finding the truth and managing griefing.
My idea was a polygraph machine or something similar. Perhaps it would be accompanied with handcuffs or a taser. Something to incapacitate a person so you could take them to the machine. Once attached to the machine a list of good and bad deeds would be listed.
Something like "let loose five bears, broke two kilns, killed one person" (bad things) and "killed five bears, built three kilns, healed two people" (good things).
Good deeds main purpose would be to counter bad deeds. So if you let out bears but also killed them its clear you were collecting rugs and not griefing. If you healed a few people and killed one you likely countered a griefer etc. The list would likely be pretty short given how uncreative most griefing techniques are.
I think a griefer's most potent weapon is confusion. Often a person is mistaken as a griefer and killed instead of the culprit. Sometimes griefers will try to blame others for their actions. Having others waste their curse tokens on an innocent player.
I like the idea of a system that helps in finding the truth.
I think something like this could prove really useful. The main issue i find is actually catching a griefer and also potential abuse. Perhaps handcuffs give a speed boost and you need at least two people to say something like "john doe is wanted". They would be escorted like a horse, and delivered to the poly graph like the horse is to a fence. Then the list would be read off in colored text to indicate good and bad actions.
Let me know what you think. What would be potential pit falls with something like this? What would be your good and bad actions list?
I do my best to exclusively express my own interpretations and not presume i know the point of view of others. I'm happy to set aside our differing perspectives for now. I look forward to debating with you in the future.
I could not care less about what other players want, what the majority wants, what you want, unless they can argue that it aligns with Jason's stated high level goals for the game better than what his current direction is
This is abundantly clear. By Jason's goals im sure you mean your own.
What you are is a kiss ass who hides behind Jason's leg even if he doesnt want you there. Friction creates heat and change. If you cant handle it then go away. To pretend like yours and jason's visions are the same and belittle anyone who disagrees with you is naive. You dont know what he truly wants and there are no sides to choose. You act like you're white knighting for him when in reality you're just trying to stifle others from expressing themselves. Especially if they contradict your views.
People have the right to express themselves in their interpretation of art and entertainment. Its up to the artist to interpret it to their own benefit or detriment. The choice is theirs, not yours jcwilk. You act like you speak for jason or you have this lofty view over everything but in reality you just talk out of your ass and act like you know everything.
Jason is smart enough to discern what is just salty rambling from true issues with the game. I have issues with the latest updates, sure. What i truly resent is people trying to quiet the reception and evaluations of these updates. People like you jcwilk. So why not take yourself down a peg and realize you're not better than anyone else on this forum.
Jcwilk, if you want what you're asking for and wish to control how other people play go find a game that suits your desire rather than attempting to corrupt one that has the potential to truly shine a light on human behavior.
You're disrespectful to anyone who is contrary to your opinions and you belittle them by acting like you are in the majority. If you want a true pvp ranked game go find one that actually functions that way. The beauty of this game is that it is defined by its playerbase, guided by jason. A good life is up to interpretation and shouldn't be defined by some silly score. Im happy its more flexible now but what you expect is ridiculous.
Players will always find a way to play the way they want to. Even if it hurts them. What you seem to want is a system that forces everyone to play the way you want them to. Get off your high horse and have some respect for those around you and the visions of the developer of this game.
You are not better than anyone and if you want your suggestions to be taken seriously you better have some profound evidence to back them up. Freedom of expression is the beauty of an artform and if people were forced into rigid structures without any leniency everything in life would be monotonous. I think its clear by now i grossly disagree with your point of view. Dont worry though, im not giving up. Ill be here every step of the way, the contrary force to your bs.
I'm very happy about this. Especially the unlimited tool slot potential. Great work, thanks Jason!
P.S. dont punish players anymore for /die. Loosing a life token is already a huge punishment. If you truly want to stop people from doing it just remove the feature. Its there for a reason jcwilks and you have no right to govern how other people choose play the game, like we have discussed before. You do you.
We also have jails and governments in real life. Do you see those in ohol? The whole point of the game is to have it be self governed by the players. We create the society and that's what's beautiful about it. To expect a society in the stone-industrial age to magically have laws, restrictions, and stuff like child services is silly.
My main point is that restricting diversity is only going to limit experiences in game. Say my mom is an eve for example and she cant sustain any more kids and explains to me that my death will enable future generations to live on. I would find that to be a moving and unique life, even though it was a short one.
I know i have no right to tell jason what to do. I agree its his masterpiece and he as the artist gets to choose where things go. All i can do is express my interpretation and hope it has an impact. He gets to choose if it matters or not, im perfectly fine with that. Its the beauty of being an artist. I meant more that we as players have no right to expect inescapable structures enforced on other players so they play they way we want them to.
I think more player freedom equates to more diversity and i think structures that limit those things are bad in any regard. I think the rift limited diversity but i saw its merit in terms of testing the game. I worry that tool slots, genetic fitness, and family specialization has limited the game so much that we only see a limited view of the diversity potential of the game. Only acceptable playstyles reap rewards and players are walled off from playing how they want to or accessing the true spectrum of diversity this game can provide. I find this sad and i hope things change in these regards.
Ok, here's the thing. No one has the right to force someone to live a certain way. Just because it bothers you it doesn't give you the right to take away choices from people.
If someone wants to be a shitty mom i think they should have the right to do so. Having kids die is enough punishment imo. If they dont care they are truly a sociopath, and guess what, we have people like that irl too. The beauty of this game, and why i love it so much, is that it capitalizes on the human element better than any game ive ever played. By limiting the ability for people to express themselves we limits the overall diversity of experiences, good and bad.
Eves should still be random, its not easy to get a lineage and town going from scratch and most often they die off. If the eve is truly unfit, let that trial by fire be the testament.
This is a vicious game and it shows a deep spectrum of human behavior. Limiting players to what is "acceptable" only limits the representation of that diversity. Genetic score only highlights one playstyle and if someone wants to eve or have many tool slots they are fixed into that playstyle. Its bad for diversity and its bad for the game. Im fine with it being a periphery thing but no score system should govern how people play. Making us all play the same way defeats the purpose of this game imo.
Putting everyone in a rigid structure with no flexibility is only going to promote a monotonous experience. Maybe some people like it and maybe some people hate it. What we should really be focusing on is trying to capture the broadest spectrum of behaviors. The more diversity in lives the more interesting and exciting it is. Being abandoned as a baby hurts emotionally, in the current system it cuts even deeper. It makes people feel that unless they play a specific way they are failing and will continue to be restricted in the diversity of how they want to play.
I dont care what the opposing reasoning is. Limiting players and putting them on a fixed path is bad. We have entered into that territory and its disgusting. We thought the rift put us in a box, but tool slots and family specialization truly have.
I agree. I don't think I would mind genetic fitness as much if it didn't directly effect gameplay. Having a low score is incredibly limiting, having a high score is better but its still very limiting. Personally i wish it would just go away. I find it more annoying and i have yet to have it aid in my experience.
Like DestinyCall mentioned it reminds me that im in a game and breaks immersion. Every life we live is unique and its up to us as the player to evaluate if it was a good one or not, not some clunky score system. It forces players into a playstyle and limits freedom. The life limit already encouraged people to not /die but with genetic score ruling over all /die is off the table if you want to keep your tool slots up.
Personally i wish we would move away from limiting systems. Player freedom and ability was one of the things i loved about this game. When i first started a player could be born any gender any race to any mom. A player could pick up any tool and help however they could.
The learning curve was daunting and i loved the concept that the only limiter was your knowledge and skill. This unfortunately has completely changed and players are now severely handicapped. I understand creating more adversity for players but there are more exciting and interesting ways to implement something like that.
The more annoying the challenge doesn't make it more exciting to overcome, especially when the result is lackluster compared to the degree of struggle. If someone puts an incredible amount of effort into something and they receive a mediocre reward the person is likely to loose motivation each time, until it erodes into disinterest.
So whats the difference between an exciting struggle that creates a quality experience versus one that is agitating? I dont have the answer to that question and im sure its different for all of us. What i do know is, before the tool update eve runs were what i loved. It was raw, unforgiving and fast paced.
I have yet to do an eve run since the tool slot update. Im afraid to, i dont want to experience my favorite part of the game ruined by this tool update. All i know is the latest restrictions have not created any form of exciting abrasion for me. In fact they have taken away elements of the game i adored.
I felt like the game was balanced before tool slots were introduced and once the rift came down the game was finally feeling like it was getting back on track.
Its felt like the game has been having an identity crisis lately. Its felt like instead of release content to grow the tech ceiling once players reach it (like the trailer mentioned) we instead are given extreme limiters to keep us from reaching that ceiling. The limiter updates do not create and exciting struggle or an interesting life. They threaten the fabric of the game and what makes it great. At least for me.
Im all for creating more adversity and struggle as long as it feels good. Pre tool slot eve runs felt good. I know that for sure. The challenge of finding a good spot, keeping your family alive, and rushing steel tools feels outstanding. When you can die at sixty with your family working hard around you, the steel tools you crafted actively used, and a farm and bakery ramping in production it feels amazing. Knowing you built a foothold for your family and propelled them into a stable existence.
These latest limiter updates are more like throwing sand on the fire than making things exciting. I want more excitement like eve runs, excitement where you make a huge impact for future generations. Struggling to find another family so you can get some simple resources is not exciting. Having to balance your tool slots while a town is struggling is not exciting. You do a few thing and suddenly you are stuck doing those things for the rest of your life. It makes things stale and it feels like you are fighting against and invisible wall trying to contain your potential.
These have been my experiences since the limiter updates have been released. Genetic score shouldn't matter. People should be able to play how they want to, that's what makes for an exciting and diverse life. Its sad to see the game go this direction and i hope jason comes to his senses.
I really do like the idea. I worry though that it might be a huge headache to implement something so complex. My main concern is that so much time and effort is being put into these systems that may or may not add to the overall experience of the game. Even potentially taking away experiences that make the game great. I know thats subjective but i think with the level of outcry that has resulted from the last few updates its a potential that the changes have threatened what others enjoy about the game. At the very least i know it has for myself.
I would really like to see more changes in progression and time put forth to refine those aspects instead of systems that limit players and potentially damage the experience of the game. Every hour jason works on these systems digs us deeper into the hole. If he goes too deep we may never get out. Its selfish to expect him to throw all his hard work away when hes devoted weeks to tool slots and family specialization but i do think its the best route. The further we go into this rabbit hole the more likely we are to be stuck in it. It may not be fixable and it may never be as satisfying as the previous version.
I agree completely destiny. Personally i wish tool slots would go away. Genetic score should just got back to being a periphery thing. Tool slots are far too limiting for my liking and having them tied go such a fragile and clunky system only makes them more annoying.
Operant conditioning is never a satisfying element in games imo. I hope we start moving away from systems like that and start seeing more tech ceiling growth and refinements in those regards. Lately things have been incredibly stifling and it has extinguished most of my motivation to play.
I worry about certain skill systems being exploitable or promoting unhealthy behavior. If you get points for planting carrots for example. What's stopping someone from planting a million carrots outside of town to farm score.
Its a sensitive balance to promote work without making it exploitable. If picking up wild iron gives points someone could just go around picking up and dropping iron to catalog it to themselves.
Maybe something that promotes diversity could be good. Perhaps each diverse task checks a box for your total score bonus each life. An issue i could see with this could be that it doesn't promote specialization. So if you exclusively farm, bake, or smith you wouldn't be optimizing your score.
A good thing could be that it would promote diversity of baking and farming. Each different type of food made or every type of plant planted could count towards your score. I would be worried about smithing because it could promote tool spamming and wasting steel.
Perhaps smithing would get multiple ticks for processing iron and steel while farming and baking would only get one tick for each diverse item made.
Just spitballing but i like the idea of a system for tool slots that reflects player ability over parenting capacity. Current genetic score is a very narrow view of what players contribute to the game. I do not think tool slots should be limited by factors that have little to do with them. You dont even need to use a tool slots to gain genetic score. You just have to live to sixty and hope your kids do too. Its a cheap system and shouldnt be used to define a players worth.
From what i can grasp communism will always be the meta. Not marxism but communism like the ancient inca for which the ideology was based on. Its far more efficient to work for society without materialistic gains and ownership. You reap what you sow and we have to work together to grow as a society.
People being selfish or doing things for their own gain are a liability for society. Hiding pies for example. Unless you made the every facet of that item (plates, bowls, soil, berries, carrots, wheat, rabbits, kindling, adobe kiln) you are essentially borrowing from society. To think you have the right of ownership because you put in a small percent of effort in that process is naive.
This game is about civilization building and parenting. The most important thing in doing both of those things is contributing to society and teaching your kids to do the same.
I like these ideas. I could see the biome restrictions limiting the ability of towns to grow into megacities though. I really like the idea and it would create an interesting diversity for settlements. Maybe an alternative could be that non native plants do not preform as well outside their biome (60% of base production), and plants from an extreme biome cannot grow outside of them. Perhaps over time, maybe 1000 years, the plants adapt and go back to 100% of base production. Many plants have adapted and been genetically refined over the course of centuries. Just look at corn for example. Sometimes plants grow better outside of their native environment as well. This would likely overcomplicate things though. Biome restriction or a base cut on production would likely be easier to implement.
As much as this flavors of humanity is a cute idea, it is a bit confusing. Just as easy to say black, brown, white, ginger. Another issue is when you describe someone as a vanilla person its hard to distinguish if you mean their skin tone or if they are a non mod user.
Yea genes are pretty dumb. Part of why i went for a high number. Some people take it really seriously but its really easy to get to the top. There isnt a proper technique. Just stay alive and hope your kids do. Its a bad measure of skill and can be tanked easily if you have a bad eve run or a griefers pillage the town you're in. Though ive had that happen and still had my score go up.
Personally i think skill slots should be dependent upon skill and spawns should be dependent upon genetic score. Eves are chosen from players who have the highest average of both.
As it stands a player can sit around with tunnel vision and just bake. Or a player can run around the entire town, cycling the farm, making compost, processing oil, building fence kits, cycling iron to steel, making tools, and filling the bakery in one go on the oven. Both will likely have the same uptick in score but the latters children will have a better chance in the future. I think whatever system that is used to measure player skill should reflect that.
What a profound ego gomez. Respect.
You might be surprised but i know a lot more than just baking. In fact baking was the first thing i got good at, because its easy. Eveing is my speciality.
If you're a skilled player good at stabilizing a town, live to sixty, and nothing catastrophic happens you should go up at least half a point every life. Even at 50+.
There's not much use in making many melodramatic posts about how much one likes the changes, so it ends up seeming like everyone hates it
I would be curious to hear your good experiences with this new update. Not conceptually but with real experiences and evidence to back up your point of view.
no one really gives a shit about what they're doing since it's gone in an hour
Speak for yourself.
It seemed pretty boring to me that I'd pretty much always get born into a city with endgame tier tech already achieved. Like what's the point? It should take many, many generations to get to endgame tech and it shouldn't be always even possible for a given town.
It does take many generations and hard work from a collaborative community to achieve end game tech. Whats the point? Maintaining the town so it is flourishing and stable for future generations. Towns like this give players the freedom to build radios, planes, and anything they set their mind to. Without that stability society wouldn't advance. Personally i think the tech ceiling is too low. I like to think that one day this current end game tech will be considered mid game tech. Its pretty clear that the last few updates have been an attempt to make progression more difficult. I personally do not find these kind of mechanisms exciting, i find them boring. Imagine you are an olympic athlete and you worked your whole career to hone your skills and talents, but this year everyone is required to wear 50 lb weights in every event. Would you find that to be an interesting and exciting addition?
Making lots of complex recipes is one way to do this but I think it's great that he's trying to add additional dimensions of challenges to overcome. Linear grind is boring
Slowing down the grind does not make it any less linear. Where on the tech tree are there options to deviate and create alternative structures for society? Sure, now only certain races can collect certain materials but does that disrupt the order in which they are used? No, it only disrupts the ability of their use. Making the game more complex and difficult is a great idea! I'm sure it will help with player retention as well.
I would like to see a poll on this update and tool slots as well, but that is likely never going to happen.
Didnt do much, just didnt /die. Usually have around two kids on average. I also tend to play during low population as well.
Ok good to know. Thanks for the info.
So recently i had hit #1 on genetic score. My score was 50.42. Didnt play for 24 hours and now its gone. Never really cared much about the rankings but i guess i lost all my tool slots as well as any chance at an eve run. Very cool system.
Spelled lose wrong *facepalm*
A cool alternative to family specialization being skin tones would be to have tattoos, face paint, or a birthmark. That would remove the racist element. Might not be as easy to distinguish though.