a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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one corn plant gives more food and grows faster than berries, but you have to retile, no? berries are the backbone of cities where new people are bound to eat inefficiently, because they are the least iron-intensive crop. Previously when towns had no more than 20-30 bushes, they could all have been planted using skewers and have fed the city for days with zero tools broken.
All crops raw only give slightly more food than berries, at the cost of an extra tile making them worthless. Always good foods are berry, berry in bowl for the no iron consumption, and then the various advanced foods like stew, sauerkraut, bread, buttered bread, milk, skim milk, and the two meat pies. In smaller numbers, for the people yumming, popcorn and meat+berry pies (although I know some people disagree) might be worth it.
As mentioned above, the meat pies are almost free food. A meat pie costs wheat and mutton, which are byproducts of composting, plus one water. Or wheat and rabbits, which now you should have fields full of. I know I have 6 boxes full of pies in my solo village and I am always tempted to just keep two in my backpack with me and never bother yumming.
I am also not saying I never eat corn/carrot/beans raw. I do it, usually in my solo village, especially if I am planning on going scouting. I have so much food, I prefer the slightly higher yum for the extra free time, despite knowing I am probably wasting a few pips. But I suspect people being forced to eat carrots/corn raw to not starve in towns since the update is a major factor leading them to unsustainability and collapse.
thanks for all the testing, I can see how to build in the heat now. Does it seem that being insulated in a warm tile is better than being insulated on a cold tile, with clothes but without fire? Or do clothes+insulation+cold always beat insulation+hot?
Jony, you don't get any server coordinates, as in which spot in the server you have spawned in. You only get the relative distance between you and other players in the server at the time of your birth. So you can know which direction other players are to you, and if they are still alive when you arrive you could even find them in the map.
Mr. XIX maybe we should get some hennep and paper to roll it, or maybe he just adds the Border of de Kade to get your stuff ingame.
Pork bao! Made in steamer baskets.
Maybe domesticate onions and we can steam those and carrots too.
I love that stuff!
Honestly there are so many ways pork could be used but I suppose Jason thought that would be too easy. One more reason for a noob to get confused, one more way to grief in a way that people can't even tell you are being evil.
well since the temp update snowballs are deadly for the attacker
Falsewall wrote:Temperature shock.
Your temp will slam to extremes when entering and exiting a desert or snow tiles. Also it stays in the extreme temp zones after leaving before returning to normal from shock.I'm not sure that such counts as 'stuff'. Do the mechanisms behind electricity count as 'stuff'? Maybe they do. Maybe they don't. As I said, I'm not sure.
You are trying to suggest Jason didn't follow his promise of adding something every week. But you can't reasonably expect new items will always be added every week, regardless of other stuff happening. People make statements and follow their spirit more or less rather than word by word. So I am not sure if something "new" was added this week. However he definitely is working to in his mind at least improve the game.
it would be interesting to hear actual noob opinions, they too busy populating the graveyards though.
You can see other animals in this sort of stasis at times too. Wolves, mouflons, bears, boars, etc just standing still without moving at all. Once you attempt to interact with them they'll become active again and attempt to move.
So when a biome threat is still it is usually because it is bugged? I find creating more tiles it can walk to helps it get unstuck usually.
the individual is a total lunatic...
this is the first time we will agree on something. wtf is a cyber lawyer, I don't even. Some people are just strange and disappointed with their lives, and it leaks out whatever they do. Props to Jason for the thick skin. Tbh I wouldn't be issuing a refund in his position but I guess someone like that is more trouble than they are worth (not that any suit would have any success, or that this person even had the money to bring a suit forward. Just because of how annoying on yt/forums/etc they can be and how much hassle they can cause to mods).
... When I do ask for help locating items or resources or even how to make something I'm unsure of, most players are silent. I understand we cant stand around all day chatting but if I ask say, 'where is clay' a simple 'IDK' or 'south' etc would help a lot...Moral of the story, be nice and teach.
Kids only speak with a couple of letters at a time. So talking to them needs to happen one on one, so you can read their messages. Since kids will starve a mom now if left outside, moms just drop them in nurseries where all kids look the same and their words get mangled. So kids can't say if they are noobs now. Before I would always ask if my kids were new. Now I don't have time time. What if they tell me they are, so what. To teach anything you have to actually be where the teaching happens. This is usually out in the cold, so kids can't make it there. You can't teach them even if they somehow manage to communicate what they want to learn, and you want to teach. Plus the only person talking to babies is the milkmaid, who is not their mom and often doesn't really care that much, plus she can't leave the nursery to show the kid stuff anyways.
futurebird watching videos can teach you random stuff, but usually I will watch something because I want to learn something specific, or, more often, read the wiki. However when you are starting out you don't know enough to seek out learning from vids, you don't know what you don't know. You need someone to show you how to tend berries and farm and bake and have incomplete knowledge that you want to expand.
well if someone really wants to die they can always force DC and you have no way to know if it was their internet being cut or them wanting to DC. so trying to stop people from dying when they want to is a losing battle.
well before the update you could easily keep towns going at their current level, as long as you had iron. So people had some free time and came up with things. Many times, those things were just griefing. Sometimes though they made cults with weird altars. Or they had "royalty" and guards doing their bidding. I was even in a small place that had a "gang" that recruited some people while randomly killing babies.
jungle and desert, for anyone not using pre update settlements, are now avoided. With the recent fix, and with some clothes, you just run over them on your way to grass/savanna/mountains typically without significant penalty. So it is almost as if you removed them, except you can prop up a village for a bit if you bring some banana baskets, while berries disappear and other food is more difficult to find that concentrated.
You mentioned yourself, that you have added hundreds of items since before the warm biomes. I haven't been playing that long, but from reading here, many of the changes and additions were upgrades, that nerfed their previous stages to make them more worth it, like water. Farming was also changed to a composting model which needs more work and soil than before. So while a lot more is possible now compared to back then, every stage requires more resources and experience to accomplish. Doing all those things was only possible because you didn't need that much food, due to good temps. So people only really foraged to look for iron as soon as a city was established, and you could get crops one time and keep them going. Post update, all the extra resource and food pressure compounds with how you have much less time to do any work. Before good players could start improving a city at 3 or 4. Now players have to be afk by the fire for the first 5-6 minutes of life or risk very likely death, then have to spend the next 10 making clothes, and might as well be dead in the last 5. So you have about 40 minutes, during which you need to eat and take breaks much more often, to do more work than before.
Upgrading and the more developed systems you added were great when older players were able to improve the towns, and noobs could be completely wasteful for a couple of weeks until they learned the ropes. I remember spending a few lives just figuring out how to tend the berries in my first days. I remember trying to get water from a well, not realizing it was dry. Trying to water crops with salt water some griefer probably left near the farm, because I wasn't mousing over items. I was learning rules like never shear the last sheep but I didn't understand why. However, I had the chance to find a good temp tile which was easy enough and observe others working and learn that way. Or I could ask someone to teach me and we were in good enough temp that there was time to talk between one of us needing to look for food. Now you are forced to be cold when learning, you can't go inside by the fire, you have to be in the farm or wherever the work is being done.
All the extra resource pressure means you now need to forage for wheat even with a town set up . The huge berry farms suck up all soil, making other cultivation difficult. We need to place things close by and efficiently more than ever, but I keep seeing wheat and carrots planted on their own somewhere off to the side, because if you plant them in common view they will be gone really fast. Towns keep getting propped up with wild resources until they run out and collapse. Soil and the items needed for compost seem to be struggling the most.
well buildings before were not important to survival and were done as side projects to learn that part of the game. I remember only in one very large town that people were spreading out in the grasslands and actually built 2-3 houses in the outskirts. There were lots of griefers and houses were a way to protect yourself and store weapons.
But most people definitely did not see any buildings before the update. The main issue is not that buildings were made more important, that is reasonable. The problem is that grassland settlements failed before, and the changes don't make them that much more likely to become sustainable. The old meta was nerfed to oblivion while the new meta was hardly buffed. Success is expected to come entirely from players getting better at building fast and using space efficiently, but in a town I just played people were dying because of the clutter indoors not letting them pick up food, and their skeletons littered with 3-4 clothes made it almost impossible to clear up. People will die and settlements will fail from the dumbest things.
If buildings protected advanced equipment.... through what mechanism? How would this be simulated? How would this be messaged to the player? How would I author this, when adding new "advanced equipment," to specify this relationship with certain walls?
Assuming it wouldn't add too much overhead, you could make decaying items that are inside stop decaying. As soon as you dropped an item that would have this behaviour, such as a cart, if when you drop them they are on an insulated tile, then check if all 3x3 tiles around it are insulated, and use that to count it as being inside. The counter will just be stopped, not reset, so a cart will still break while you use it or leave it exposed outside, but not while you have it stored in the tool shack. The smithy/bakery would also more safely fill up boxes with baskets of stuff, helping with storage. And you could over-hunt rabbits for a while, convert the space-consuming furs to clothes and store them until someone needs them.
The concept of decay is not in the tutorial yet. It could be introduced at the same point where using houses and fires is introduced. You could hve a regular basket inside, a decayed one outside, something like that.
one way to find which way the spiral goes is to do some quick disconnects. you should find the body of your previous self relatively easily. Or if you drop some items in a weird way so that your spawn point is recognizable later if you try to figure out how the spiral goes, since if you move you will die elsewhere.
I suspect ruins on the depopulated servers will be hard to find. People are likely to pick a spot after searching for a bit, plus there isn't that many people playing them, so structures would be older than a week and despawn. But on the big server it should be possible.
That said, it really isn't that easy or common to find something. The easiest time I had finding previous constructions was when I was born in a large city with a bunch of horse carts. So I just took one and went looking. Large cities with markers and many people dying of old age are likely to cause Eves to spawn close to them, at least it seems that way. Anyways, I found a couple of abandoned kilns and then a live Eve village! People were establishing a new settlement just 1.2 k away from a massive city, and were completely unaware!
I like how the warm terrains work now. Desert being equivalent to snow seems reasonable. Being in the jungle in v201 actually is like the "neutral" terrains naked, so staying there for extensive time is viable. So now it is true that the main difference from before is that you have to work for it if you want good temp, you can't simply use biomes. This does make the game more difficult, and changes settling locations and priorities, but with people who actually have a bit of experience it is certainly doable.
The main remaining issue is that the learning curve is quite sharp now. Friends who I introduced to the game complained you had to eat all the time before when we left the city centre, now you need to eat even more often and most wild sources are depleted. The only reasonable thing to do as a baby is to stay still for 5-6 minutes, and spend the next 5 or 10 depending on the situation getting clothes for yourself, if you are not lucky. Many people just won't realize that and parenting is less common than before.
Hopefully players will figure out layouts that let newer players survive for longer, and actually progress in the game.
so, here is how finding ruins works: whenever you spawn as an Eve, the server does not plop you at random. Instead, Eve spawn points follow a spiral pattern. Since people tend to settle and try to make a village somewhat close to where they spawn, if you head towards those spots you should find someone (a skeleton at least). So any time you spawn as an Eve, if you head NW,SW, NE, SE from your spawn point, one of these is going to be going out of the spiral; one will be going towards the previous eve spawn point; one to the next eve spawn point; and one going inside the spiral. If you are going inside the spiral you are most likely to find cities, since you will come across a few spawn points in a life time, one of which might have grown. So you have 1/4 chance of picking the right direction and almost likely finding a city. The zoom out mod helps.
IIRC the game now has the following system for decay: When you stop seeing an item, it stops decaying directly. When I say seeing I mean being within the area sent to you by the server, not the area the FOV limits your sight to. If you have the mod, it is the entire area you have visibility on zoomed out all the way. Rather its state is stored and the timer waiting for it to change state next time it is seen. So if you make baskets, clothes, carts etc and you go to the same spot again in 24h, all will be at the first stage of decay. If something is being seen all the time, it will decay in expected time. This is easily seen if you have a fire in a solo eve village, you can spawn back in the next day and it will still be running at the stage before firewood.
So you can stumble upon 4 day old ruins, and the baskets and carts might be in the first stage of decay. If you leave immediately and come back the next day, they will be at the second, and so on. If an area has not been seen by any players for a week, all structures decay (even those that do not normally) and everything respawns.
From what I understand, the update can be summarized like this:
- jungle now actually is the same as grassland without clothes. with clothes, grassland/other "neutral" are slightly better.
- desserts are uninhabitable.
- you no longer have a 3x3 tile "box" around you determining your temp if not on floors. So there is no easy temp averaging.
- you have an 8x8 tile box if on a floored tile. This box can be limited by walls, so that you are not affected by tiles beyond them. So if on floor, there is temp averaging again.
- fires give heat close by like before, but also have an 8x8 box which applies only to floored tiles. By having common tiles in your and the fire's airbox, you raise your temp in the cold biome. This makes fires useful and a viable way of warming quite a few people at the same time.
So now, if you have managed to build a heated space, you are better off than you would be before the update as a village in the cold. Most people have to be outside and are not really affected by the fire, working outside with clothes in the cold should be about the same as before the update.Since people didn't settle in the cold before though, the game is now overall more difficult. However it is not impossible. Unsustainability comes from the new people who are mostly dying since the update, who cause tons of waste in the village. If you are efficient though, it is totally doable. I mean, you came to my solo eve village in the jungle earlier today, you saw there was tons of food to go around. Being in jungles now is as bad as being in the grassland gathering straight shafts without clothes was before the update, and that is how most people run around then. So you can be there, but if clothed its easier to be in grass.
In my mind the only question left is if building+clothes in grassland is better than just a building in jungle, and how temp averaging on mixed temp floored tiles works.
Like mentioned above, you need a large green biome with tons of milkweed, soil and berries, close to many ponds and preferably also close to many bunnies in savanna. So the intersection of these three would be perfect. Being super close to savanna could be a little risky because people will over-hunt the rabbits more easily.
You need to get 3-4 full sets of clothes early to protect people off the fire, so that is like 40 milkweed, not counting hatchet, firebow, other stuff. So obviously without ridiculous numbers of milkweed next to you, there is little hope. If you manage to also start up a forge early, getting firewood will make life so much easier.
If you can't live off foraging as an Eve with 5 people the town won't make it when there will be 15 people. So farming isn't really necessary right away, there is no time to do it, better to get clothes so you burn less food per second and you can set up farming at that point, when you will be able to work without breaks much more easily.
spoonwood v201 fixed the jungle, its temp and dessert temp were too high, plus clothes don't overheat you anymore. So it is totally doable. I returned to my town and want to complete it now. I'm gonna floor the jungle and chill in the open.
now I just want beach chairs and pina coladas to be added in the game.
1. Desert and jungle were actually too hot.
2. Body heat no longer affects you in hot environments (so clothing will make you no hotter than your hot env).
3. Kindling can go in basket and backpack (to make early fire tending easier).
All these are great steps in the right direction! Thank you
I'm pretty sure that what it comes down to is this - you have a ten percent chance of a pro either being your eve or an eve's child. If that happens your line survives. That's how it was, that's how it is. Either you make your peace with that, or you don't play.
eve starts have always been difficult but being born in a city was survivable before. a noob could be inefficient and have a chance to learn to farm or even make stew and pie. now noobs just die and you have no time to type. I hope no new people buying the game and noobs asking for refunds which I have heard from friends who bought it recently will change j's mind. These "pro" people you refer to paid their 20 a year ago and don't help him pay his bills. A game makes no sense if it is built around having its oldest and most experienced players regularly dying of starvation if they aren't super careful and mindful of their age and food pips. Noobs have no chance.
yeah that's my bad because i've never seen a hatchet break in the last 20 hours of playing since i came back. A decent camp has an iron ax before you chop wood 41 times, so why does this even matter?
And have you been looking at the damn lineage server? family lines are ABSOLUTELY surviving
it matters because an eve needs kindling for her kids not to die. you also need thread to clothe everyone, usually three per person. so hatchets keep breaking and there is no milkweed for either clothes or hatchets. If you think people get steel tools in one generation since the update you are just proving what not knowing that hatchets break suggests.
Look at the "damn lineage" server. Then look at the line in my signature for how big gen 30 villages were until recently. Now "gen 78" families have 6-7 people. The cities keep starving, some people manage to survive, because they stash food or forage. With cities being based around many wild berry bushes, you can keep sustaining a small number of people long term - those who had an opportunity to scout or have the mod. Until RNG gods decide that your bushes don't spawn any berries for a while, that is. Or until all the wild soil, wheat and water propping up the settlement run out.
As for houses / fires becoming better and deserts being too hospitable, I don't disagree. I do disagree with the implementation. People didn't stand on desert/swamp borders their whole life before, they mostly stood in desert because it was medium warmth, compared to grasslands being quite cold. What if settling in grass+savanna+swamp became as good as settling on biome borders, instead of completely nerfing the only way that settlements managed to work up to now, with a small desert nerf? For example make deserts as bad as grasslands. Make clothes really valuable by helping against all terrains. Why kill off jungles completely, when villages in jungles were unsuccessful and not the norm up to now?
Any of these steps could have been taken slowly, one by one. He could have made a 3-4 step update plan that took the game towards its current state, with testing along the way. No, fuck it. Just wreck everything, and if you walk on warm-cold-warm-cold have them die in a few seconds, despite the map having tiles spawning like that all over the place. By the way, don't mention temp shock anywhere but the discord. Amazing.
You can stop a dog barking by petting it or taking a shotgun to its temple. This update is the latter.