a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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it's not elitist for a game to be challenging. Stop being babies. The fun of the game is that it begins frantic and challenging. it should actually be difficult for an eve camp to survive.
Do any of you remember 25-30 years ago when it commonly actually took some effort to survive a game's first level?
hey, do hatchets break or not? please remind me.
All towns survive a few hours and die off. It is always frantic, not just for Eves. Play now, play 6 - 8 hours later, /die trying to get back to where you were before. You won't, you will Eve, because all those tows are dead.
btw, nobody lived on grasslands before so your next post is pointless. You could leave the village when you were older and making it naked in the cold was doable. You could go gather long shafts or milkweed. Plus wild grasslands would be full of food - now they are empty. Quite a few times before the update, when I was eveing as a noob, older players would tell me "it is too cold, no way we will make it here" and ctrl+del to the next place. Everyone is being forced to play at the locations where playing was impossible, with clothes being no more helpful than before.
Okey.. why even make rooms/walls then? Just place floor everywhere. Maybe use the stone you would have used for walls for stonefloor, that will visually separate the working areas.
Think about it this way: if you want to replace *all* walls with floors, and have the same insulated area, for each wall you would need instead a bit more than 4 floors. Here is how:
For non corner tiles, each wall would be replaced by one floor on its tile, and three more floors directly out. For each tile at the corners, you would need one floor for the actual tile, plus a 3x3 square of floors covering the corner. So the larger the room, the lower the average of floors needed per wall replaced, since there are more non corner tiles. You would also need all tiles to be free of natural obstructions so you can place the floors.
If you are only replacing part of a wall with floors, you need more floors per wall tile replaced because you have to cover the open tiles with floors at a 3 tile radius in all external directions. So you would need a 7x3 floor rectangle added outside of a single tile open entrance, plus one floor for the door tile itself, if I understand correctly. So for a single tile wide door, you exchange one wall for a whopping 22 floors. Essentially, that is one column of 3 tiles directly on front of the door, and two 3x3 floor squares to the sides: (S=stone wall, F = floor, O = open)
S.S.S.S.F.S.S.S.S
O.F.F.F.F.F.F.F.O
O.F.F.F.F.F.F.F.O
O.F.F.F.F.F.F.F.O
O.O.O.O.O.O.O
As long as you don't get within 3 tiles from a corner, making the open door two tiles wide means you need one less wall and just 4 more floors. This holds if you keep removing walls until you reach three tiles from the corner of a room. At that point you have to insulate the sides as well.
One stone usable for wall/floor requires one shovel use, and two chisel uses. Both of these break (the chisel less frequently iirc). So using stone for A log requires just one ax use, but you need four at best. So floors should be a bit more steel-intensive than stones. Then again axes seem to last more than shovels (but I am not sure about that, crazyeddie probably knows). Either way there is a lot of both of these resources, just a bit of a pain to bring them back.
Collecting logs seems a bit easier/faster. You can run out on foot with your ax once, quickly chop up many trees you don't need, and then go back and transport them with a horse cart. It is faster to fill up one cart with logs, so you won't be chasing after it that often compared to stones. With stones to really prepare so you won't be chasing your horse later, you need shovel to dig it up, then mallet and chisel, so that you can split the stone to two pieces that can be placed in the cart. All three tools might break at any time. So you would probably need one trip on foot with a shovel and a second trip on foot with another mallet which breaks more easily of the three before the horse trip. However you also need at least four times as many floor tiles as stone walls you are replacing, one cart is two stone walls or four wood floors, so you need at least double the trips for 4 times the floors.
Anyways, it feels that floors are a bit easier to make. Cutting trees also provides firewood, which you will need sooner or later. Plus having all these floored tiles outside the building area would five insulation bonuses to people working outside the building, and allow for much faster work which in itself saves food. So I suspect having one side open to keep expanding as needed will become common.
I do agree that is has gotten harder, but my enjoyment has not changed
How? it is an ordeal to play now. I used to play many hours per day, now it is pointless, I barely play. If you log in over a few hours you will see all settlements die off. Before the game actually made sense and cities survived for longer, usually taken down by griefers. Now they get taken down by the game being unreasonable.
> A good baseline for everyone is 3 furs + 2 thread for a cap and pants (0.3825 R) will save you up to 425 food per hour, for the first 5 hours!
Hah looks like my gut-feeling was exactly right. Making hat and pants is exactly my strat.
I love all your calculations!
yep! mufflon hide has only 10% off the rabbit equivalent, which costs 4 fur, so more than the loin and hat combined. Plain mufflon/seal can work for coats at least in the beginning.
The way the game is right now feels something sick and sadistic. Is the game supposed to only be for the elite and not inviting to more casual players? The response to any complaints about the new update seems to be meet by pretentious elitists that think they are something godley because they play a game with a average population of 130 people and has lost 10% of the player base in the last 30 days.
Its a real shame because it really felt like it had so much potential. But I guess I should have read more reviews on Steam before I fell victim to the Youtube hype. Allot of them clearly warn that this game should be beta or better yet early access.
I couldn't have said it better. This game dev has zero respect for the player, flips the meta on its head completely, and if you talk about it people tell you "zomg dont take anything as permanent we are following a VISION here" or "if you don't want everything you do erased, play on your own" (ie, why did you buy this in the first place? get a refund, you should have just downloaded the game code and played on your own). This game not only has zero testing. Zero testing is part of the dev's philosophy and if you think there should be testing, balancing, or gameplay be stable, then the response of the people defending the game is essentially: fuck you, you were swindled, you shouldn't have paid. Games don't do that even in beta stage, I've never heard of a game where code changes are just rolled out like that. Even early access games have a beta patch on steam that you opt in where changes are implemented and after some testing they are applied to everyone.
I had two friends who joined this game because of me, thankfully they both played less than two hours because they thought it was too hard and you had to go eat all the time, and that was before the update. I told them how the game changed and they are both requesting refunds.
Ok not defending Jason at all but do you understand what OPEN SOURCE means?
Um, do you understand what open source means? That anyone can take the code and make their own similar game, is irrelevant to the people who buy Jason's game. Linux server code is open source, if I buy server services from someone and they fuck it all up it doesn't mean I can't sue because I could set up my own servers, no shit. If I wanted to make my own ohol, then why did I buy Jason's in the first place? By paying Jason, you are not buying the code (only), you are buying into the community offered by the servers. Changing the game completely day over day with no heads up at all is quite unreasonable, and saying that the game is open source, just make your own, or just set up your own server, is not a reply to that. All you are saying indirectly without realizing it is ask for a refund, you shouldn't have bought this game, because those alternatives *are* free. I don't want to play on my own in a local server, I want to play where people can join me, where I can find other villages etc. That is what I bought when I bought ohol.
So the issue here is that the dev made a very radical change, which makes previous gameplay useless, the game becomes the opposite of what it advertises itself to be, and what previous experience suggested. I am not a lawyer, so I have no idea how this would work out in practice, but the grounds seem thin. Not because of the game being open source, but because well, devs can update their games and change the code how they want, and you can't really sue over a game sucking pretty hard. This issue was also raised with F76, of broken promises and clear issues, and it was specified that people can't sue over the actual game being bad and buggy, but they can sue over the physical nylon bag being advertised as canvas.
golmock, eves used to farm in the past, when you could settle at a hospitable terrain temp wise and had the time to farm. Now you don't have time to do anything, pretty much foraging is your best bet, and no cities have been sustainable since the update. Hospitable spots now have tons of wild berries, ridiculous amounts of milkweed, lots of soil and water. The amount of these resources determines if you can enjoy continuous famines that kill off the noobs, young and old can last for a few or for 30-40 generations before all foraging sources are too far and everyone dies. Eves are expected by the dev to be screwed no matter how good/experienced you are. So Eves at best can rush to get clothes, and set up the basis of civilization like a kiln and clay stuff, while foraging to survive.
I too enjoyed interacting with noobs very much before the update. I liked when someone said they were new, I would teach them farming (most only knew to tend berries), composting and taking care of sheep, if they were intermediate I would teach them to make pies or stew. Now there is zero time to do any of that. One person at most should be taking care of kids because otherwise everyone starves. That one person has to rush to feed the kids and not starve themselves, which is often hard since villages are death zones where food runs out all the time. All kids look the same so you can't distinguish them if someone says they are new even if you wanted to. When they grow to 3-5, you can't leave the nursery to teach them because you are taking care of new kids brought in. So there is no teaching post update. And no time to google stuff even.
If I have a kid now, and I am a bit out of the village, there's no way I have time to go back and forth, so I almost always abandon. In general my rule is, if you have a boy, look at the nursery, are there more than 2 babies (0-3 or 5) in there? If yes, abandon the baby or the village will starve soon. If you have a girl, look at your HUD. If you have more than 2 pre-fertile girls (0-14), abandon the baby or the village will starve as soon as the girls grow up. So it is fine to have a couple of boys growing up all the time but not girls. If you don't use the mod, prepare to starve to death all the time.
Taz, there are people on this forum with hundreds of posts, who have been bitching at other players the past few days that "maybe you are not good enough at surviving" and other forms of git good noob, who didn't even know that hatchets break. Someone like that probably bitches on the forum and licks dev ass 10 times longer than they play the game. I suspect your post said similar stuff to the posts these kinds of people make, so you got caught up in that. It was your main task as an eve to get 5-6 bushes, gather sticks, maybe plant carrots etc before. Making it so that everyone keeps starving constantly and eves by design have no time to farm is cruel and stupid.
Honestly, it boggles the mind that it could be believed that "the game isn't really any harder than before" by anyone who understands it.
From his posts, it seems that he doesn't play the game, so I wouldn't be surprised. Edit: he does play the game, just wears very special glasses. Someone mentioned deserts were added at update 79. If you consider using warm terrain an exploit, that is an exploit that existed for 120 updates. So either you don't know what you code, or you don't know how people use it, or you use the word exploit just to rile people up. None of these options is encouraging.
Josh, going in the jungle for three tiles to get some bananas with full rabbit suit overheats you to max. The only way clothes protect you is if your temp is close to middle, and that only holds for 20 seconds or less. So realistically if you are foraging you will always be at slightly over grasslands temp when you go in the jungle, so overheating is really close. You need some seconds to drop basket, eat, drop eaten banana, fill up your backpack and basket. So you always max heat and max cold as soon as you leave. It is better to drop your clothes and even use them to make a path to the bananas if you can't access them from outside the jungle.
Considering that Jason wrote that clothes overheating you made them bad before the update, this is another clue that he doesn't fully grasp how what he does affects the game. The overheating problem existed before the "fix" that made you always be at least as bad when you switch from hot to cold, but using your high insulation, you could switch between cold and hot to even out your temp. So if you entered the hot with good temp you would have 15-20 secs before heat death. The fix made that impossible. If going from warm to cold with clothing at least made it so that you go to worst biome temp rather than inverse of max heat, it would be more playable. Now when you walk to a jungle close to the village you find a bunch of fully clothed skeletons on its borders.
It boggles my mind how people keep saying that clothes are actually more helpful now. They are only in extremely limited and specific circumstances. Clothing for cold terrains if you are outside is the same before and after the update, since you don't hold fire temp for any significant time. You are forced to settle on bad temp (you won't convince balancing biome temp was an exploit, it is literally how climate works irl) meaning all farmers and most crafters are forced to be in the same cold as you were with clothes before the update. Clothes didn't make settling in cold biomes worth it before, they don't make it better now. Then, they are much worse for the hot. The reason that made them bad for hot terrains, mentioned by Jason, was not changed - clothes do add heat to you. But, since the hot terrains were made extremely hot compared to before, clothes and hot terrain is now much much deadlier than before - they bring you to max also in the jungle (before that happened mostly in desert) and they make you keep extreme temp when you leave the heat for longer than if you weren't wearing them. The insulation works in your favor when leaving the cold only when you have medium temp, which you never realistically have if foraging.
The only improvement for settling in the cold compared to before is for people inside heated buildings, because fire is more useful. However, buildings take time and effort to build, putting a lot of pressure on all other resources. Buildings are also useless for anyone other than the wet nurse, babies, old people who stay inside so as to not starve (but are likely just wasting food by being alive at that point) and the baker, if you take the time to destroy your previous oven and rebuild it inside. So buildings don't help the temp of anyone working to help the village, they are all in much worse shape compared to before, since they just have slightly higher than biome temp.
Buildings also make everything further away from the other parts of the village that you need to combine to make things work. The nursery needs to be close to the berries, and to make clothes for the noobs, you will need to have rabbits close, so you also need the oven close. All this completely exposes the game's storage issues, which could be tucked under the rug before the update.
Carrots, wheat, berries, pen, they were all next to each other before, so making compost was practical. You placed it in the middle of these four parts, you had soil for the crops you need for more composting, and could quickly feed the sheep if you needed dung. So, farms stabilized and became sustainable as long as you had iron for shovel/hoes. With compost running well, you could set aside an extra pile and set up corn, beans, squash next to the berries, then later top up the hardened rows with soil spread around for the rest of the farm. Now all these parts are further away from each other, so due to travelling it takes triple the time to compost. You lose food pips much faster, so not only do you need to stop what you are doing to eat all the time, the clutter means you also travel a lot more to find food, and you are less likely to find it in time if you don't have the mod.
Buildings generally screw up pathing. If you keep doors open, you aren't warm inside them. If you keep them closed, auto pathing around the building (one click) is faster than clicking in front of the building, opening the door, clicking in front of the door inside, closing the door, clicking in front of the other door (which might not even be in your FOV), opening the other door, clicking in front of it outside, closing the door, clicking where you wanted to go. Ain't nobody got time for that.
Finally the berry farm would be placed at the best combo terrains, so toddlers 3-5 could tend to it while eating very little. Now the fields need to be triple the size, nobody leaves gaps, it takes you 20 secs to tend 4 bushes. If you are a baby and have little/no clothes which is common, you need to take a break constantly to eat so as not to starve, and you have eaten 5 berries in that time. Everything is less efficient and eating time is tripled, working time is cut to 1/4. So unless well clothed, you should stay by the fire until you are 6 or 7, can't even tend berries.
I've noticed that as soon as some people start producing some advanced foods, the berry fields immediately go gray. This is because only adults can do anything, all the building clutter means they are far and can't see the berry bushes if doing anything useful, toddlers stay inside, or die outside, or overeat outside making the bushes gray. This situation is repeated when you get old, slightly better since you most likely are fully clothed, but the last 5 minutes you are forced to go in and out all the time. So the duration of your usefulness is greatly cut, before, after, and during adulthood.
Anyone saying that the game's difficulty is comparable to before... or that settling in the cold is now easier than before... I suggest they play the game.
Eveing is more common now since settlements are unsustainable and die off constantly. There is no reason to settle... if you want to survive better keep moving between wild sources... the game is pointless now
you can survive being bit with clothes but it is a close one. If you are low you won't. Plus being in the jungle with clothes means you are already close to max heat, if more than a few seconds in you might be at max heat before being bit.
spoonwood digging up a stump changes nothing for the mosquitoes, but it allows you to walk over it, so you won't auto-path through uncovered tiles.
Rage I am not sure how suing would go for you but the website you link to is flagged by chrome, or perhaps by my addons? Not sure
having no fire, those rooms'd be as cold as outside.
It seems that is not correct, if as a baby you go naked from a cold part of the room to outside you will see your temp dropping.
pein the room I am talking about was something like 20x14. There was plenty of space. I just don't really understand why walls are super important other than being indoors, kids can be around it, adults don't really stay inside much other than the milkmaid.
Cities keep surviving for generations based on foraging. if you look around all biomes are completely barren. There is no wild wheat left even because growing anything than berries is almost impossible. This creates a weird situation where everyone keeps starving other than the foragers and a few people who stick to the buildings and have some food stashed. Someone said that people starve, cities are ok... I think it is the opposite, cities starve while a few people make it. The only time I remember the towns I was in having some food around was when people kept killing all the kids for 10-12 minutes straight.
This means cities are mostly unsustainable since wild sources are going to run out over time.
killing as an Eve is now a requirement. You need to set up so many things you need to be really lucky. Keep them later (lets say 25+) and probably no more than three.
nowhere in his words about this update, does he mentions that clothes make you overheat in the jungle. the only things he says are that jungles are just as bad as grasslands, and that "Clothing was also a pain before, because it would make you too hot in the desert or Jungle. So people just did without." which makes one assume that this was changed. How naive.
We do need more clothes though, especially full body desert robes, as i keep saying.
anything that makes hot biomes playable again would do a lot to fix this update
yeah milkweed is super important now, you will go through hatchets easily and you need a lot of thread either way
if walls are beyond the 8x8 grid, do they matter?
to put it another way, if you are in the middle of a 15x15 floor with no walls around it, or a 15x15 room with floor, is there a difference? Or will there only be a difference for those at the sides of the room (because their 8x8 box goes outside of a floor area)? What if you light a fire, will it heat up more if there are walls versus no walls?
for the millionth time, I have no problem finding 3-4 people with full clothing and backpacks dead at the jungle entrance to scavenge off of, and carrying food around for myself. I make it to 60 easy, and usually by 55-56 get back to the nursery, give off my clothes and chill around there for my last 3-4 minutes. Doesn't mean that we didn't kill off all the babies for 10-15 minutes to not die out. Doesn't mean it was fun to play that life or that the town progressed in any way.
"People are starving, not towns" is quite silly, towns are made of their people. Since the update the towns go through continuous starvation cycles, during which most young/old die. Have you noticed anything odd about the savannas lately? They are completely bare. People eat all the carrots because they need food getting bunnies, they take all the wild wheat because there is no soil/iron to grow wheat, and all the rabbit holes get griefed so that you can get a new rabbit in 6 times slower. Previously, you got carrots and wheat once, and that was it. Now, when starvation hits the town, the most experienced and right age people find some wild resources to get compost and restart the cycle. Sooner or later you won't be able to do that.
blade that is what he is saying, that people in a village don't really yum most of the time. Maybe if you are yumming at +14 and planting stew crops you could eat some green beans but you shouldn't encourage people to eat them at +2.
bread costs four times the water as one pie, and if compost is being made (which it is much more rarely now) then you have tons of mutton, not to mention tons of rabbits. If compost isn't being made you don't have the wheat thing. But none of this matters, because people will light a fire to cook two pies and a bit of meat so as not to die.
Thanks for the information Eddie. Since all tiles need wood flooring, it sounds like that at least the forge, if not the oven also will have to move. Or do I misunderstand things and stakes can get put on the same space as a kiln? I haven't tried that admittedly, but I can't imagine that working. Players have to destroy a kiln and rebuild things now or move it, build all these buildings, build wood flooring, there does not exist any way to get any farmers to good temperature like before, but the game isn't harder? Sounds to me like you've provided more evidence that the game has become harder.
Yes, forges and bakeries need to be placed on top of wooden floors for insulation to work. The best way in the current game to have good temp is to go inside, take off all clothes, put them back on, go out, repeat every 30 sec.
the nursery has to be bigger than 3x3. You can easily get 5-6 babies, there would be no space. Big fire is too much if no doors are open and you are right next to it. Moms need to drop kids in there all the time. Plus if you are going to have stew in there that means you will have two fires going at some point overheating everyone, so being able to open doors is actually useful.
I have seen in a larger place where they used a single large building that fitted everything inside, with the nursery and fire in the middle, baking bellow and smithy on top. This made it easier to drop off kids, and keep an eye on the mom to see if she is suspicious or not. Kids could be close to the fire and have good temp, but the fire also heated up people coming in to bake, drop things.
The smithy isn't used all the time, and being inside already helps with temp. If you really wanted you could make a second fire in that area to warm it up. Since you are already planning for two fires all the time, this would be cheaper. The only advantage of having separate rooms is that doors opening doesn't affect everyone's temp, but if you are close to the fire it doesn't matter that much from what I saw. Adults' temps are going to be bad regardless.
Grim_Arbiter wrote:I just feel like he could have done this with keeping jungles the same temp and doing everything else that he did. There is no last bastion for a casual or newer player to learn. All the people on the not so good side of the scale die before they can even type out "I'm new"
I wouldn't reccomend this game how it is right now like i have to people I know personally in the past.
This! I had grown tired of deserts myself actually. But, jungles seemed rare, because plenty of people didn't know how to handle the bites (which isn't difficult, but you have to know how to do it or listen to someone trying to tell you). I recall even quitting on a family before who was in a jungle before, because of the possibility of bites. Also, ideally you would want people to trap and entomb the mosquitoes, which does take serious effort and probably would end up an intergenerational project with a true jungle with more than a few mosquitoes. It would require teaching people or hoping that other knowledge players willing to put in the effort were around, unlike killing a snake or three yourself in a few years. And the people doing that wouldn't be causal players, I think. So, I think that if only jungle would have gotten nerfed they still would have been kind of rare, or at least, the choice between jungles and prairies as the third biome for the ideal intersection (grassland and swamp are necessary) I think would have been at least somewhat close.
The problem here is that the dev only looks at really old players, and doesn't consider what the game is actually like for the average person on it. I was quite surprised when he mentioned in his post that jungles were too easy, because I had similar experiences to you. In fact, mosquitoes are the most dangerous threat to a village. Noobs don't know to go to cold biomes, but they do know to rush to their family and yell F over and over, while overheating completely. So you waste 4-5 berries to keep them alive while they needed none, and then they munch on another 3-4 berries to fill up. Mosquitoes would kill an entire village, not just the person bit, very easily, unless you dedicated significant time and resources to fill up all tiles, cut trees and remove stumps so you can navigate safely, and slowly drive the mosquitoes away. They are the only threat that can starve an entire village and the only threat that you cannot simply kill with a bow and arrow.
So I was actually very happy with how jungles worked before the update, felt it was very well thought out and reasonable. If you were a noob, you could easily die and starve your village. If you were alone and too old/young, you would be dead. But if you dedicated time and resources, were very careful about the tiles you walked on, and used steel tools to clear it, you could make a hospitable place for your settlement. I don't understand why the dev and so many people here think that the game must always be hard no matter how good you are at it and how long you have been playing. If you are an experienced player and have the mod, you are 10 times better than a noob at finding food. To make it difficult even for them, the result is making villages unsustainable and requiring everyone to forage between famines. So all noobs, or just people who were the wrong age, or didn't have the opportunity to scout and have small FOV, they just die and have no chance to learn and become good.
the only way to be able to eat stuff other than berries, is for stuff other than berries to exist already or be realistically craftable. That is no longer the case after the update. You don't have the time to complete tasks in any good time, you have to eat so often you work much less. By the time you find (usually forage) food, which is much more difficult to get, and come back, the materials you gathered are gone. People are making omelets because it is pretty much the only thing simple and fast enough to make. I have seen pies but much, much fewer are made at a time compared to before and they are all gone in seconds.
Villages are pretty much unlivable at this point. You see 30 or 40 generation places with 5-6 people alive, because everyone who doesn't sense / observe through the mod impending starvation and rush to the wilds, starves every ten minutes. As others have mentioned, foraging is now the way to survive regardless of a town having buildings, fires, clothes, pumps, etc