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#101 Main Forum » No FTW: onwership » 2019-04-02 19:22:02

Glassius
Replies: 1

One of unintented consuequences of Jason's vision is lack of social structure. Even most successfull village is more like a colony of ants. The reason is, game design discourage to apply real life mathematics, which cause people to create society. So, we are lacking families, trade and wars, I'll call it FTW. There is also more, ownership, stability and resource scarcity. I want to discuss each in separate thread, because possible answers to all thoughts would thrash the thread beyond my understanding. I start with ownership

Topics

1. No heritage
2. No merchants
3. No warchiefs
4. No fathers!
5. How to secure ownership:
    a). Access
    b). Guards
    c). Violence
6. Conclusion

No heritage

While we strongly discuss how to encourage parents to care about their children, little was said how to encourage children to care about family. I personally, just wait until 3 years old, tend a berry field trying to complete my outfit and I never care about parents again. In real life it is also happening, but a common behavior is taking care about parents. We can justify such behavior by jindness or love, but it has also a strong mathematic reason: heritage. In OHOL ownership is limited to what a character can carry on itself. You do not have to trade off goods with your parents, because most of things are a common thing. You just take what you need! If access to tools, food, shelter and clothes would be more dependend on the will of elders, young characters would need to put more effort into connection with them and help them complete their projects. There will be will on both sides, parents and children, to stick to each other even more, than to stick to the village.

In my last game I've made a locked box, shared a doubled key with a friend. When I was old, I wanted to pass it trough and... I did not know who to give it for! I was just a male without possible heir. Indeed, males in OHOL are just like ants and bees, just a relatives working hard on the whole tribe survival, but not contributing to chosen family or sorted people.

No merchants

Trade is emerging only as a roleplay or single players initiative. Even if it happens, it is caused by clever strider who can clearly recognize a temporary state of two villages, what may be beneficial for both sides. There are also other reasons why trading is hard, but how can a merchant gather goods for trade, if he has no certainty his goods would not be distributed among villagers, just because he cannot guard his property? To have real trade, you need a real ownership.

No warchiefs

War is performed by soldiers, but is caused by rulers. Ruler needs goods to offer to his soldiers, even before they can plunder enemy settlement. If it is pay, or fief, he also needs a way to secure his ownership. Such rulers can create law, negotiate truces and trade agreements, make ultimatums and carry wars. Yes, there are crowns in game, but be honest: is there anything a crowned char can offer more than un-crowned?

How to secure ownership

The only way is to protect own goods. Jason gave us for this reason bows and knifes capable to kill other players. And here comes Jason success: players developed social rules how to not cause a killing spree! Players are hiding weapons, dissasembling them and limitting only to responsible, hard working citizens ignoring family relationships. It causes, that thievery is common and unpunishable to the level, when all settlements are a communist paradises. What is not held or worn, belongs to everybody.

Access

There are locks to doors and chests, which came out to be griefing tool, also unintentional. It's because locking is extremally easy, just put lock on doors and run. To fix it, putting locks must become a complicated, long lasting activity, just like compost or stew making, which will give time to other villagers to react, if a lock would be put by not trusted players. Make it loud, so everybody in village knows what is happening. Add steps with screwdrivers, screws, bow drills, deadbolts, deadbolt holes, handles etc. Allow also to open doors with logs as rams or lockpicks, but make it multistep, loud tasks which will alert nearby players.

Guards

There is a possiblity to make an NPC guard by implementing AI to dogs, useless at this point. Like, make a person feeding and immediately picking up a puppy owner. Let the owner pick a name at this point, just like with human characters, and apply single commands.
- Your name is Jake
- Jake stay!
- Jake follow!
- Jake guard home! (dog attacks everybody in building except owner and closest relatives)
- Jake guard hoe!
- Jake guard basket!
- Jake bite DaTrüf!
Small dogs may bark at people near doors or guarded items, big may also bite.

Violence

My father and his neighbour were building houses. They've made a road on themselves and put also electrical connection. The electrical law changed and power plants had to buy out private electrical infrastructure, but some people were speculating high prices. On one beautiful day, when my father was working with shovel, two sad gentlemen arrived in car and started to work with electrical box. The power plant wanted to cut him off the electricity, so he would accept lower prices during buyout! He raised his shovel and chased them with roar. Gentlemen ran away, and he later sold his electrical infrastructure on standard prices.

Most players are using tools, which in real life may be deadly weapons: shears, hows, shafts, hammers, rocks, fists. This one implementation would be the most controversial, it is to allow for more PVP options. But it would need to create a semi-hp combat system, which would not be welcomed by many players. We already have a blood bar during letal injuries. What, if this bar would become a HP gauge? Like: stab and pierce wounds would cause bleeding, the blood splashed below would blink and slowly get wider and wider, killing a person in the end. But fist, stone and shaft hits would be blunt damage, immediately increasing the blood bar, but not causing bleeding. This way, blunt-hit victim would have it's warning.

Conclusion
More ways to secure ownership will not cause FTW on itself, but it will provide more movements towards them.

#102 Re: Main Forum » Why there are no wars » 2019-04-02 14:47:51

I am really happy you Jason came to this point. There are many possible solutions, but answer firstly to yourself and to us: how much of your original design ideas can you sacrifice to have families, trade and war? Can you abandon "everything runs out" philosophy? Can you include fathers in reproduction? Can you allow for more PvP? Can you resign from your beautiful graphic design and allow implement zoom mod on yourself? Can include voice chat? Can you allow players to live trough multiple lives in one family/city? Can you play around food burn engine, AGAIN? Maybe you have to resign from all this complex social behaviors, in case to leave each live a methaphisic, short existence focused about leaving a small mark in big world, for future generations you will never see again.

I think lack of FTW (families, trade, wars) is not only a result of lacking features. This is mostly the output of your design. You wanted every life to be unique and one-time experience. That design has unintended consequences you now realised. I'm going to make comprehensive topics about lacks you asked about.

Because , i will shock you: there are rules of nature, which cause war, trade, parentship and others. You're just clearly not aware of them!

#103 Re: Main Forum » How about a shift-change? » 2019-03-30 23:38:39

Simpler. Make meat spoil fast. This Way all this meat will be wasted. In reality, when you kill animal, everybody around focus on meat to process it while it is fresh. It also resolves the problem of stacking meat. This would also create interesting clutter problem, if spoiled food would not disappear smile It would create a village cleansing service smile

#104 Re: Main Forum » Why do people... baffling behaviours » 2019-03-30 21:25:57

Why do they interrupt smith work? Like seriously, I saw there is no axe and went to do it. Easy cheese, I forged crucible. I want to take plate off and forge steel to axe head until forge is down. Then 3 players arrive, cover all flat stones with iron blooms iron, and the last stone is hidden behind guy spamming "make ax"... Why?

#105 Re: Main Forum » Steam workshop » 2019-03-30 20:47:25

Anandamide wrote:

; just download and open the game folder.

No. You have to firstly get to know about it, find the forum or YT with it to check what is it (firstly i thought it is about old Joriom's mod), find it on Github, figure it out (most mod users do not play with developers repositories), download and extract to directory.

On Steam: check if there is workshop, surf trough it, subscribe.

Anandamide wrote:

You still haven't given any kind of example of the kinds of mods you want to see.

It was obvious from my posts: content, requiring independent servers. M&B works this way, Steam workshop is the easiest way to find such mods. Running server is not so casual as reskin, but still people do it on Steam.

Anandamide wrote:

and the other side with client QoL+Reskins is something Jason is against and will not ever include that in the game. He doesn't want us zooming, but due to the way the server works there's nothing he can do to stop it currently, so he gave us mosquitoes.

Cheaters and Jason's artistic vision are valid arguments. Just next time, do not argue that modding is very easy. It isn't. It's standard difficulty. Easy are mod managers. Say at beginning, modding is too easy and should be harder so there will be no mods at all.

Anandamide wrote:

***Im not against mods, I use AWBZ. You just have to be realistic about what Jason is actually gonna get behind and this is not it. He would have to have some change of heart on what the whole game is about and make a single player option***

Again, M&B

#106 Re: Main Forum » Steam workshop » 2019-03-30 19:41:31

You are like those crazy linux guys, who said: compile OS on yourself is easy, just download it from repository, write commends to console which were put on the Internet thousand times, disable all the options you are not gonna use for better performance, download LXDE if you MUST use GUI, but better stick to console. If any game does not work on Wine, just wait, linux community will fix it. Or fix it on yourself, nothing easier, just download debugged code...

This is bullshit. Windows got so popular, because it is so easy. Making mods more available is simple, fastly increase community and appeals casuals. Do you know that following external links on Steam gives you warning? Then repository, which causals do not know. Than download, extract (people Google how to extract zip!). Even finding Steam games directory is challenging to some. Every such a simple, easy step is the part of great learning curve we, forum users here, usually beat without problems. But if you want community to flourish, bigger player base, more cities, interactions, you must make it as easy as possible for Steam casuals.

#107 Re: Main Forum » Steam workshop » 2019-03-30 19:00:59

I do not think it would affect Jason massively. His code is open source and was modded multiple times. The only cost may be managing uploaded mods in his workshop.

Most mods for Jason server would be reskins. But even if it would require another server: Mount & Blade was done this way. And CS 1.6. So, it usual thing on Steam

#108 Re: Main Forum » Steam workshop » 2019-03-30 17:28:22

Pros for modders
1. Github is for developers, not for majority of gamers. Most casuals can easy install something on Steam without any management, but not so easy from other sources.
2. Discord and forum are not used by casual players on Steam. Puting mod to Steam Workshop will help reach them.
Pros for Jason
1. Steam mod players need still to buy the game. Most mods do not bother to make sure, game was bought from Jason.
2. Jason's legacy is obvious, even without any mention inside mod.

#109 Re: Main Forum » rant/discussion » 2019-03-30 10:23:55

No strange you've keep being killed with bow & arrow, if you keep knive numbers so low smile

#110 Re: Main Forum » Steam workshop » 2019-03-30 10:20:44

Mods are only visible to Discord and forum users. Steam players are not aware of them. Steam workshop would be beneficial to modders. And it happens to many games, that modders keep it alive much longer than competition, so Jason will earn much more money because of community.

This affects only one things in negative way: Jason's artistic vision. From an art master he would become more serious businessman, which I believe he doesn't want to be, even if he currently is smile

#111 Re: Main Forum » Law obeying » 2019-03-30 10:18:30

Death to fake laws and false prophets! That's my roleplay

#112 Re: Main Forum » rant/discussion » 2019-03-30 07:15:22

breezeknight wrote:

there is still bow & arrow

There is no bow & arrow when griefer strikes, as those are the things griefers hide before murders. With knifes in backpack you can still be productive and this is the only way to quick deal with griefers.

#113 Main Forum » Steam workshop » 2019-03-30 07:04:22

Glassius
Replies: 13

Just tried to play Two Hours One Life, but seems the mod server is down. I've took a look at Steam and there is no workshop. Do you Jason plan to enable it? I believe it would be both beneficial to you and modders.

#114 Re: News » Update: Sweet and Spicy » 2019-03-30 05:29:31

Spoonwood wrote:

Also, are snowmen and a crock of salted snow supposed to melt in a tundra?

Yes, they are smile Introducing dependancy on environment was suggested multiple times, like need for extra water during farming on desert or problems farming in tundra. Jason did not want to, because it would introduce a whole new system of influences and will drastically complicate rather simple crafting mechanics.

But this is interesting casus smile Post it on Github as bug and see, if Jason will fix it somehow smile

#116 Re: Main Forum » rant/discussion » 2019-03-29 09:27:51

You can either arm everybody, od disarm everybody. Your approach, the second one, is decreasing the chance for murders. But if any happens, it will be massive!

#117 Re: Main Forum » Should wolf farms be a new staple farm to civiliations? » 2019-03-29 08:06:59

It's not about is it worthy or not. It is to proof it is possible smile

#118 Re: Main Forum » Should wolf farms be a new staple farm to civiliations? » 2019-03-28 21:24:04

I have a new purpose in life!

The only problem: what to do with skinned bodies?

#119 Re: Main Forum » Babies should be like geese or even just human babies » 2019-03-24 21:50:45

Nah

Suggested many times (remember to upvote it!) https://www.reddit.com/r/OneLifeSuggest … with_boys/.

Jason refuses to do so, and it is not clear currently why...

#120 Re: Main Forum » Jason PLZ - next necessity » 2019-03-24 21:44:49

Tarr wrote:

Make the convenience come from tech not more random piles.

I must disagree. New tech would probably be endgame. Endgame village do not need buff. Eve's camp do. Stacking meats will help Eves villages, endgame containers will not.

#121 Re: Main Forum » Jason PLZ - next necessity » 2019-03-24 11:03:52

Why can't we have both, stackable meats and containers?

#122 Re: News » Update: More Emotions » 2019-03-16 20:14:23

I hope mobile developers will fulfill a promise. I'm happy the future of OHOL shines bright!

#123 Re: Main Forum » We need a different option than murder » 2019-03-07 23:22:37

My father and his neighbours funded an electrical connection. Power plant wanted to buy it out. To speed it up, they send two said mans to cut us off electricity.

Fortunately, my father was close with a shovel and made them ran away. This is why I am still waiting for more violence options. Without them, there is no property. Yes, we have deadly weapons, but there is little use of them. You are hesitant to kill for small crime and you lack a way of medium punishment smile This is one of reasons, there is no private property, no trade and no wars.

#124 Re: Main Forum » So when am I getting unbanned from the discord? » 2019-03-07 23:02:05

Even though in the game I would totally kill you, I agree you are a vital part of the community and you should be unbanned

#125 Re: Main Forum » Are We Having A Player Decline? » 2019-03-07 14:42:04

breezeknight, it is true. Jason posted in the toughts behind this game a video about meaning of life. Reproduction, mastering minds, mastering environment and increasing satisfaction.

In this game there is no mastering of minds. It is happening on Discord and in forum. The game does not allow for chatting about the life, the universe nor about nr 42, because chatting person will die. Maybe understanding other players and coordinating efforts on great goal would work, like establishing trade routes, resource outpost, discovering the world. This is happening, when a small community performs an apocalypse on public server or make long lasting 200-generation village. But it is against game design currently, without external management.

There is an attempt to master our satisfaction, like bonsai, dogs and painted walls. Its just, a casual player will not do it: the tension on survival is to strong.

There is only continue of species (lineage) and mastering the environment. The second one is also neglectable, because we discover and implement new content much faster than Jason can develop it.

The continue of species is irrelevant also. There is no parenting, only communistic nursery. There is no parenthood, nor mating.

And it will be this way, because Jason believes the inevitable death should be a motivator for most of those things to happen. But I believe, it turns most players nihilistic. They leave the game or grief. After learning the tech tree there is almost nothing else to do here.

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