Society Score

forman · 2021-10-26 14:46:23

I might have brought this before but since Jason may be back soon, I figure it's worth another mention.

The idea is that score should be based on utilitarian factors rather than how long your characters live

Food production -- relative to meal complexity

Iron refining, tool production etc all relative to complexity of the formula being used

This would require a lot of function editing or some kind of interface pattern but it wouldn't be that complicated

Basically just a tick to a score attribute that pulls a data value from the object in question when the action is performed

A better version however, would be that the score only increases when someone /else/ uses something a player produced

This would require more tracking but would remove a few possible exploits from the previous system

Not only would this adjustment improve the existing score system but could be a more reliable factor for further game updates

For example, if the score can predict player reliability this allows the potential to give greater powers to leaders or players with high scores

This already governs things like exile or property inheritance but could potentially allow high level players to set the family spawn zone

choose where they are born, or allow an override for opening iron mines (rather than the current well system)

Similarly, bad, or risky behavior (like killing) could damage score value similar to the way downvoting works in stackoverflow

This would also effectively fix the curse system

Cogito · 2021-10-26 22:33:07

forman wrote:

A better version however, would be that the score only increases when someone /else/ uses something a player produced
This would require more tracking but would remove a few possible exploits from the previous system

I love the idea of tracking how useful I have been.

Have you thought much about how that might work for complex items?

So we can track who baked the pie I'm eating, but do we also track who made the pie, who grew and picked the carrots, who ground the flour and made the dough?

Coconut Fruit · 2021-10-27 05:44:16

Farming score would be super easy this way and sometimes could be even harmful for the family (for example if people made unnecessary engines over and over again, wasting water for newcomen tools)
Don't forget a pro player can grief too.

Also implementing something like this would take insane amount of time (adding some kind of score for so many actions, thinking of how big the score should be for each action - these are just a fraction of work that would have to be done)

And then what? Score would grow infinitely if people didn't do "bad behaviors"? How do you even tell the game what are bad behaviors? (is killing really bad if most people or leader agree that someone should be killed? - that's the only way to kill right now)

Cogito · 2021-10-27 07:37:19

Just brainstorming here...

Coconut Fruit wrote:

Farming score would be super easy this way and sometimes could be even harmful for the family (for example if people made unnecessary engines over and over again, wasting water for newcomen tools)
Don't forget a pro player can grief too.

It's possible that creating too many engines is 'bad behaviour', but if the score is tied to other people using the engine then you avoid the problem - an unused engine is worth no points.

I also don't think the score is intended to stop griefing per se, but rather to encourage and reward good bahaviours.

Coconut Fruit wrote:

Also implementing something like this would take insane amount of time (adding some kind of score for so many actions, thinking of how big the score should be for each action - these are just a fraction of work that would have to be done)

Adding unnecessary complexity is the biggest pitfall for a system like this and is the reason it probably wouldn't be implemented as discussed so far.

Coconut Fruit wrote:

And then what? Score would grow infinitely if people didn't do "bad behaviors"? How do you even tell the game what are bad behaviors? (is killing really bad if most people or leader agree that someone should be killed? - that's the only way to kill right now)

A couple of options:
- the score could decay steadily over time/every life
- only food items are included, and every time you eat something some of your score is transferred to whoever created that food item (and the 'creator' is defined on a specific action, for example the filling of a pie) - this would skew the score-meta so probably a bad idea
- it could be more items, but include this idea of score transference

----

You made me think about the intent of this idea, and I realised that you could probably achieve a similar 'reward' by simply making it so people could see who built/made what. Even if it's only your current-life-name, being able to see 'Jazz Hope' made this pie would be pretty cool.

That feature alone would change the dynamics in-game of quite a few things, even better if you can get an arrow to that person (or their grave!!!). Imagine seeing a loaf of bread, and you pick it up and it tells you 'Jazz Hope' made this so you run over to them and ask them how they made it.

From there it would be easyish to create a report of how many things each person made, and if you could then record when those things are used you have the data to implement lots of interesting systems that surface that information.

Laggy · 2021-10-27 09:52:02

We haven't had a update in a year.

Don't waste your time thinking up ways to make this game balanced.

1% chances Jason even reads this.

Spoonwood · 2021-10-27 15:04:10

???

So, the whole game has the idea of playing for the sake of other players (not yourself). That's already a lazy way to design a game, since it's like saying that the game doesn't have to have any value in itself in terms of what it is, it just has to have people believe it's worth playing for other people. That said though, the reason that exists as a game concept, I suspect, comes from that people are supposed to entertain each other, and they are supposed to, effectively, persuade others that it's good. The game's mechanics aren't supposed to come as the causative factor for the game's value, but rather other players and how they interact should do so. That's how the game got designed originally.

Now, something like this society score, puts emphasis on productivity, instead of trying to persuade others that the game is worth playing. It isn't about convincing other people to like the game more or to facilitate interactions so that people believe the game is decent. Instead, it's about how productive a player is making objects or making used objects. But, how would such result in the players believing this game a "good game"? How would it emphasize getting others to play the game? I don't see how it would. It seems like a different concept, and one would that require confidence that the game could or should be a good thing in itself.

And well, that sort of confidence, that the game could or should be a good thing in itself just isn't something that fit with the basic concept(s) of this game.

forman · 2021-10-27 16:09:45

Cogito wrote:

Have you thought much about how that might work for complex items?

You could give percentage of points per use of item and distribute based on how many steps each person contributed but this is far more complicated than necessary.

To begin, start whomever completes the object gets the points. If people exploit this, don't help them with stuff.

Coconut Fruit wrote:

Also implementing something like this would take insane amount of time

Not really. The most time intensive part of coding is implementing complex design and bug hunting. This would take a lot of edits, I think, but its fairly simple.

In most oop designs, all actions inherit or interface somehow with a generic 'action', here you just put a few lines to add a point to the actor's society score.

That score attribute needs to be added to agent and every craft-able object needs to have a value added to it.

On completion, you call the item value to add to the agent's score.

As for 'bad behaviors' think of it like a banking system. If you have been contributing steadily you should have a huge score and the relative cost of killing one

problematic player is a non issue. Exploits like over producing certain items is dealt with by the fact that you only get points when the object is used/consumed.

There are other ways to combat exploits like exponentially reducing the points for repetitive behavior etc.

Spoonwood wrote:

So, the whole game has the idea of playing for the sake of other players (not yourself)

Uh, yeah this is a community based game. Jason already implemented a score and curse system so this is really just an improvement there.

Note, you can completely ignore the score in my system only you won't get to be a power user and make sweeping changes that can effect other people.

Similarly, if you are constantly engaging in costly behavior and have a negative score, you will be exiled to donkey town.

Note even in jason's design this doesn't stop you from playing, only from playing with others, hence, 'community game'

JonySky · 2021-10-27 16:56:24

forman wrote:

I might have brought this before but since Jason may be back soon,....

Laggy wrote:

We haven't had a update in a year.
Don't waste your time thinking up ways to make this game balanced.

It's fun to see all the believers on this forum ....

Last edited by JonySky (2021-10-27 16:59:04)

MrGold · 2021-10-27 18:34:31

Is it society score, or Chinese social credit?

Coconut Fruit · 2021-10-28 15:58:50

Cogito wrote:

but if the score is tied to other people using the engine then you avoid the problem - an unused engine is worth no points.

I just imagined a game situation - 'Someone holding an engine (or anything) and saying to someone else' "could you use my engine pls? I need some points" xD

Spoonwood · 2021-10-28 18:47:52

Coconut Fruit wrote:

Cogito wrote:
but if the score is tied to other people using the engine then you avoid the problem - an unused engine is worth no points.
I just imagined a game situation - 'Someone holding an engine (or anything) and saying to someone else' "could you use my engine pls? I need some points" xD

How would tracking the making of the engine work?

It isn't always one person who makes all of the parts.

Cogito · 2021-10-29 03:48:24

Spoonwood wrote:

Coconut Fruit wrote:
Cogito wrote:
but if the score is tied to other people using the engine then you avoid the problem - an unused engine is worth no points.
I just imagined a game situation - 'Someone holding an engine (or anything) and saying to someone else' "could you use my engine pls? I need some points" xD
How would tracking the making of the engine work?
It isn't always one person who makes all of the parts.

Yeah this is one of the concerns I raised initially in this thread.

The simple option is to only reward the person who creates the 'final' object; this is easier to design and implement and may have the added bonus of incentivising people to complete projects. Has the potential to disincentivise people doing large projects together, but not sure.

If you kept track of who built literally every object, and which objects were used to build new objects, you could create a network of 'useful objects' and do some maths to say how useful each object has been. This could be implemented in a similar way to how the basic PageRank algorithm works, if you're familiar with that idea (the idea there being that interesting pages are linked to by other interesting pages, so you can measure how interesting a page is by counting how many pages link to it, and weighting by how interesting they are).

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2021-10-26 14:46:23

Society Score

#2 2021-10-26 22:33:07

Re: Society Score

#3 2021-10-27 05:44:16

Re: Society Score

#4 2021-10-27 07:37:19

Re: Society Score

#5 2021-10-27 09:52:02

Re: Society Score

#6 2021-10-27 15:04:10

Re: Society Score

#7 2021-10-27 16:09:45

Re: Society Score

#8 2021-10-27 16:56:24

Re: Society Score

#9 2021-10-27 18:34:31

Re: Society Score

#10 2021-10-28 15:58:50

Re: Society Score

#11 2021-10-28 18:47:52

Re: Society Score

#12 2021-10-29 03:48:24

Re: Society Score

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